Kettle Rims

[doublehaul]

I currently brew with a 3 vessel propane batch sparge setup with sanke kegs - 10 gallon batches. I am really interested in electric brewing - and especially Kettle Rims or K-Rims similar to the Blichmann Breweasy system, although I would have two vessels side by side.

I'd always planned on going E-HERMS, but I like the idea of ditching a vessel to save space, only needing 1 element (and no HERMS coil), and just turning off the out valve on the Boil Kettle when you're done mashing and you're ready to roll. Seems like you would save some time over batch sparging and have temp control over your entire mash. It mostly just seem simpler to me, although I'd have to add a pump when going from batch sparging.

Anyone gone from a 3 vessel system like me to K-RIMS system? Any input?

Also dumb question - why the efficiency loss? You would think that continuously washing your grain bed of sugars would increase efficiency.

 

[Bobby_M]

You're not continuously washing the sugars. The total of all the liquid is exactly the same sugar concentration as in all full volume, no sparge methods. It's slightly less efficient than a brew in a bag system simply because it will have a little more wort absorption.

A side by side 2 vessel kettle RIMS requires two pumps.

The only reason I'd go with two vessels is if you have no way to suspend a bag above a single vessel. In other words, there is no real improvement over an eBIAB system but there is more equipment cost.

 

[Ahks]

I did the other direction.

I made a few 1 gallon BIAB batches at my start to see if beer was fun. Figured it was, so stepped up to 2 gallon BIAB on the stove... One thing let to another and now I have a 2 vessel K-RIMS setup modeled after this guys setup.


And after all that I wish I had done what Bobby said, but invested more in my single vessel.

 

[doublehaul]

You're not continuously washing the sugars. The total of all the liquid is exactly the same sugar concentration as in all full volume, no sparge methods. It's slightly less efficient than a brew in a bag system simply because it will have a little more wort absorption.

A side by side 2 vessel kettle RIMS requires two pumps.

The only reason I'd go with two vessels is if you have no way to suspend a bag above a single vessel. In other words, there is no real improvement over an eBIAB system but there is more equipment cost.

Thanks guys. That makes sense now. However, I think with with my existing equpiment (sanke keggles), I could do larger batches (I do 11.5 gallon batches) with Kettle Rims. Wouldn't I need to buy a new kettle for batches this size with BIAB? Plus I don't think the keggle design really lends itself to BIAB.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks guys. That makes sense now. However, I think with with my existing equpiment (sanke keggles), I could do larger batches (I do 11.5 gallon batches) with Kettle Rims. Wouldn't I need to buy a new kettle for batches this size with BIAB? Plus I don't think the keggle design really lends itself to BIAB.

I agree that keggles are not great BIAB vessels, but that's really because I don't think they make good brewing vessels in general unless it's a bottom drained mash tun. If that's what you have and you don't want to buy anything new, I'd agree that it's the practical way to get 10 gallon batches of just about any gravity.

 

[pocketmon]

The problem of Kettle-RIMS is matching flow rate between the two kettles. It is difficult, if not impossible, because the flow rate from MLT changes as the status of grain bed changes.
The solutions I can think of
1. overflow drain, like Grainfather.
2. Auto-Spage from Blickmann
3. wort/water level sensor and software

IMO, The benefit of Kettle-RIMS, compared to E-BIAB:
1. You don't need to lift the hot, wet, and heavy bag after mashing.(or mashout).
2. less Hot Side Aeration, if you care about it like LoDO people. Unless you have pulley system, splashing is almost unavoidable. Even if you have a pulley system, you need to lift the bag slowly.

 

[doublehaul]

The problem of Kettle-RIMS is matching flow rate between the two kettles. It is difficult, if not impossible, because the flow rate from MLT changes as the status of grain bed changes.
The solutions I can think of
1. overflow drain, like Grainfather.
2. Auto-Spage from Blickmann
3. wort/water level sensor and software

IMO, The benefit of Kettle-RIMS, compared to E-BIAB:
1. You don't need to lift the hot, wet, and heavy bag after mashing.(or mashout).
2. less Hot Side Aeration, if you care about it like LoDO people. Unless you have pulley system, splashing is almost unavoidable. Even if you have a pulley system, you need to lift the bag slowly.

I agree I'm not a fan of the whole bag idea- lifting, cleaning, etc. I shop vac out my grains.

Flow control is easy with the blichmann autosparge though right?

 

[Ahks]

I bought a Blichmann autosparge for this purpose and I'm heavily DIY, so I spent a few months researching mechanical float valves, stainless (or food safe plastic) floats, and float arms before pulling that trigger too. If you go with a float valve to keep your mash level consistent, Blichmann's Autosparge is actually a great deal for what you get. Finding a valve like the valve he uses is the cost of the kit if you source it from a Grainger or the like, and then you may not be getting silicone seals in it.

 

[wilserbrewer]

My opinion, Sell the keggles and get one large kettle, 20-25 gallon.

You keep mentioning large batches, my experience with large batches tells me that the heat loss is lessened w/ the greater mass of the mash, more so w/ a full volume mash, thus negating the need for mash temp control.

Key in on an accurate strike temp and let it roll

 

[doublehaul]

My opinion, Sell the keggles and get one large kettle, 20-25 gallon.

You keep mentioning large batches, my experience with large batches tells me that the heat loss is lessened w/ the greater mass of the mash, more so w/ a full volume mash, thus negating the need for mash temp control.

Key in on an accurate strike temp and let it roll

I like the out of the box thinking!

 

[Genuine]

I’m a full fledge believer in the 2 vessel K-Rims system and I haven’t noticed a drop in efficiency. Here’s my half barrel k Rims system:

Here’s when I first finished it:

And I just added a stainless 12.5 gallon mashtun.

Let’s get down to the nitty gritty.

I wanted a simple system and quick brew day. I can knock out a batch in about 3.5-4 hours, with cleaning on this system. I use full volume and been incredibly happy with the beers I've been putting out.

It’s not hard to match flow rate. I gravity drain from the mash and use only one pump. I couldn’t imagine a simpler and easier route. Takes all of a few minutes to watch levels and you’re set to go. I can usually walk away during the mash and not worry.

A buddy and myself made the same system with a couple keggles. We get 75-80% efficiency. Conversion is in the high 90’s repeatedly.

I have a few brew-day videos here. I have a new one uploading with the new stand (read: doesn't look as hokey).

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree I'm not a fan of the whole bag idea- lifting, cleaning, etc. I shop vac out my grains.

Flow control is easy with the blichmann autosparge though right?

Lifting and cleaning a bag is way easier than cleaning a mash tun and a shop vac.

 

[sicktght311]

Did the same as others.......the reverse. I started with 1 gallon stovetop, moved to 3 gallon BIAB stovetop, then 5gallon BIAB electric, and finally up to 5gallon full 3 vessel e-herms. Ultimately it just comes down to control and flexibility. I was constantly frustrated with BIAB and maxing out my kettle on high gravity stouts, having to heat up a second kettle with sparge water if need be, ending up with flour and grain in the boil kettle through the boil, and the mess of squeezing the hot bag and inevitably getting it everywhere.

With 3 vessel Herms, i can adjust mash thickness, i can do much higher gravity beers, i can control temps significantly more precisely, and the extra space it takes up is really negligible to me since i'm not crammed into a tiny apartment or anything. If space is a factor, i'd just go with a grainfather or something thats an all in one system and double batch

 

[Homergah]

ending up with flour and grain in the boil kettle through the boil,

Yes, but that makes the hydrometer float better. How else are you going to get 95% mash efficiency?

 

[sicktght311]

Yes, but that makes the hydrometer float better. How else are you going to get 95% mash efficiency?

hahahaha touche

 

[doublehaul]

Cleaning my bottom drain mashntun couldn't be easier, just spray with a hose, maybe scrub a little with a rag, done before I get to a boil.

I guess I don't mind the idea of BIAB with a stainless basket. However I still don't think I'd wanna let it sit on top and drain. I'd have to try it once I guess.

 

[doublehaul]

I’m a full fledge believer in the 2 vessel K-Rims system and I haven’t noticed a drop in efficiency. Here’s my half barrel k Rims system:
...

Genuine tell me about your recirc arm. I have a similar arm I pulled out of my old immersion chiller and haven't found a good way to attach it to my keggles, looks like you have some kind of copper attachment?

I just poke it through the handle or have used stainless wire to hold in place, I definitely planned on getting a better solution but never seem to get around to it.

 

[Genuine]

Genuine tell me about your recirc arm. I have a similar arm I pulled out of my old immersion chiller and haven't found a good way to attach it to my keggles, looks like you have some kind of copper attachment?

I just poke it through the handle or have used stainless wire to hold in place, I definitely planned on getting a better solution but never seem to get around to it.

I drilled through my keggle, used some 1/2" copper piping from my mini E-Herms coil and used a 90 degree elbow with a PTC Fitting. Works like a charm! For the mash re-irculation, I went to using 2-3 feet of silicone hose and that worked incredibly well! I made a video of my last brew day this past Friday that'll be uploaded shortly. Also, I wasn't sure how the false bottom was going to work since it doesn't cover the entire bottom. I'm glad to report it worked well and very little left over in the mash.