Kegging Nightmare, Part 1

[Double-R]

Long story short left about 1 quart of starsan in keg then racked my apfelwein on it.Got in under pressure now..
Now what...

 

[carlisle_bob]

Hi

Scrap the batch. No it won't kill you, but *why* would you proceed?

Bob

 

[zachattack]

I was gonna say the opposite! It certainly wouldn't kill you if you drank it straight, but chances are you won't even notice a quart in 5 gallons (5%). There are plenty of other people that have done this and reported that it wasn't noticeable.

 

[GulfCoastGirl]

IMO there is a big difference between a little "foam" and drinking a quart of the stuff.

This is from their safety sheet:

SAFETY
DANGER: Corrosive to skin and eye, contains Phosphoric Acid. Harmful if swallowed. Do not get in eyes, on skin or on clothing. Wear protective goggles and clothing when using. Avoid contamination of food. DO NOT MIX STARSAN HB with chlorinated cleaners as chlorine gas will result. See Label for more precautionary information. Contains Phosphoric Acid. A known corrosive.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Star-San-HB4.pdf


IMO it's not worth the risk. If you do decide to drink it.... I would suggest you don't offer it to anyone else.

 

[buzzkill]

the good news is its not a over the top IPA or barleywine. so you arnt out alot of cash. I would dump it. but if you feel the need to sanitize a kidney its all on you man. One day you will think this was funny.

 

[zachattack]

IMO there is a big difference between a little "foam" and drinking a quart of the stuff.

This is from their safety sheet:

SAFETY
DANGER: Corrosive to skin and eye, contains Phosphoric Acid. Harmful if swallowed. Do not get in eyes, on skin or on clothing. Wear protective goggles and clothing when using. Avoid contamination of food. DO NOT MIX STARSAN HB with chlorinated cleaners as chlorine gas will result. See Label for more precautionary information. Contains Phosphoric Acid. A known corrosive.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Star-San-HB4.pdf


IMO it's not worth the risk. If you do decide to drink it.... I would suggest you don't offer it to anyone else.

Those warnings are for concentrated star san. Properly diluted star san is safe to drink straight up, and in this case it's further diluted by a factor of 20. I'd bet you can't even notice it, lots of others have reported that this is the case.

Citations:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/didnt-dump-starsan-my-bucket-need-technical-advise-261494/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/question-starsan-users-35044/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/toxicity-star-san-64541/

No reason to dump it except to be wasteful. It's completely safe and chances are unnoticeable.

 

[GulfCoastGirl]

Those warnings are for concentrated star san. Properly diluted star san is safe to drink straight up,

Well I've seen what the stuff does (properly diluted) to my hands after having them in and out of sanitizer during a brew day. No way in hell I'd drink the stuff. I don't fear a little foam.... but I wouldn't drink a quart of it, not even diluted.

As for your citations, well those are just posts by other brewers. I didn't read them, but I'd be surprised if there were any physicians or chemists on those threads recommending people drink properly diluted Starsan. Personally I wouldn't drink anything labeled as harmful just because some posters on the internet say it's ok. But hey... that's just me; ultimately the OP can do whatever he chooses

 

[Bobby_M]

Diluted star san is 3.5 pH. We consume sodas and salad dressing vinegars that are under 3 pH. Phosphoric acid is commonly added to the mash to adjust pH.

You're further diluting the diluted mixture by 20 to 1. All that aside, since you know it's in there, you'll probably taste it even though a blind taster wouldn't.

 

[zachattack]

Diluted star san is 3.5 pH. We consume sodas and salad dressing vinegars that are under 3 pH. Phosphoric acid is commonly added to the mash to adjust pH.

You're further diluting the diluted mixture by 20 to 1. All that aside, since you know it's in there, you'll probably taste it even though a blind taster wouldn't.

I'm glad someone could back me up.

Gulf Coast Girl, dip your hands in Coke Classic (pH 2.5) for a while and let me know how they feel, chances are they'll be more chapped than when you have them in Star San. Coke can be used to clean the battery terminals in cars since it's so acidic, and it's completely fine to drink. Because the pH is a full point lower, Coke is 10 times more acidic than Star San. And you know what they use to make coke acidic? Phosphoric acid, the main ingredient in Star San.

The guy that runs Five Star Chemicals has drank properly diluted Star San himself to prove that it's safe. It might not taste fantastic (a little sour) but it's fine for you. When it's undiluted it's dangerous, but no more so than any other strong acid.

As Bobby mentioned, properly prepared Star San is around pH 3.5, if you dilute it 20 times (as in OP's case) you should be above pH 4.5 which is much less acidic than tons of stuff in your kitchen (vinegar, OJ, soda, etc.)

I'm not a physician, I'm not a chemist, but I am a chemical engineer. This isn't the opinion of some whacko on the internet, this is science.

 

[CBR250]

Coke can be used to clean the battery terminals in cars since it's so acidic, and it's completely fine to drink. Because the pH is a full point lower, Coke is 10 times more acidic than Star San.[/QUOTE]

call me crazy but I don't know if I would call coke fine to drink. I am still alive but my teeth would not agree!!

 

[GulfCoastGirl]

I'm not a physician, I'm not a chemist, but I am a chemical engineer. This isn't the opinion of some whacko on the internet, this is science.

No need to get upset, I was only stating my own opinion. I don't think it's a good idea to be giving people advice about ingesting a product not made for ingestion. I mean if you think about it there are a lot of things used in food preparation that are different in their food grade form than they are in a chemical application. Again, just my opinion.

Oh... and I rarely drink soda and when I do it's only an occasional diet coke. I can't drink regular soft drinks as they give me really bad headaches. But hey... since you say coke and Starsan are essentially the same (and coke being even lower ph) then I guess we could all save a lot of money and just sanitize with coke? Probably sounds ridiculous because... they aren't the same thing.


Anyhow.... like I said, it's no big deal to me, I was only stating my own preference. You go ahead and drink all the Starsan you like

 

[zachattack]

I don't think it's a good idea to be giving people advice about ingesting a product not made for ingestion. I mean if you think about it there are a lot of things used in food preparation that are different in their food grade form than they are in a chemical application. Again, just my opinion.

This isn't about beliefs or opinions, it's science. You make it sound like we're arguing about religion. If you don't feel comfortable with it that's fine, but I'm presenting the facts either way and it's up to OP to decide.

It's also not like I'm walking down the street preaching at the people to drink dilute acid (though that's what soda is). OP asked for advice, and there are many of us on this forum that agree that he should RDWHAHB. And I'm not advocating walking around drinking Star San like it's water...

Once it's diluted to 1.5 mL per 5.25 gallons (OP's case, that's 0.008% by volume), StarSan is safe to drink. That's not my opinion, that's just how it is.

Concentrated acetic acid isn't made for ingestion, but dilute it to 3% and you have vinegar.

I'm not sure what you mean about food grade applications vs. chemical applications. Phosphoric acid is the main ingredient in StarSan because of its chemical properties. Whether I make a phosphoric acid solution at work, or a soda jerk makes a "phosphate" soda by adding phosphoric acid, or Charlie Talley engineers a no-rinse sanitizer based on phosphoric acid, or a brewer adds it to his/her sparge water, the result is dissociated protons and a lower pH.

The other ingredient in Star San is dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid, which is a surfactant. It's also in pesticides (where the FDA deemed it's not a problem if it's ingested), it's used to wash vegetables, it's in dish soap, laundry detergent, and makeup and is approved for food contact at concentrations greater than what's present in properly diluted Star San. It's used to spray down all kinds of industrial food equipment. What I'm saying is, you're ingesting plenty of it already.