Keg Foam

[qwaven]

Hey all,

So I recently got a kegerator and while I wait for my home-brew to brew I decided I'd invest in a commercial keg to try out the kegerator.

Wondering if anyone has any pointers/tips...etc. I've noticed that when I open the tap for the beer the first glass (or half of it say) is almost pure foam. After that the beer comes out fine (though a little flat) for any additional glasses to fill. Once the keg sits again for say 20 minutes or more I'll get the foam again. Tried adjusting the PSI to what I saw online as "recommended" which is about 12 PSI right now.

My confusion is:
a) If I lower the PSI won't this only increase my chances of flat beer?
b) How can I get rid the excess foam at the start?

I figure I'm going to encounter the same issue later once I tap my own beer so I'd love to get this resolved for before then.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Cheers!

 

[Stranman]

I had a foam issue when I first got my kegerator. Turns out the thermostat didn't chill cold enough so I had to rewire it with a new controller. aka STC-1000. I also added a fan to recirculate the air around.

Put a bottle of water in your kegerator, next to the keg. Once the water temperature chills and stabilizes use a calibrated thermometer to read the water temperature. I keep mine @ 37*F. Then, use a carbonation table for the correct CO2 pressure setting.

If your temperature is correct, check your hose diameter and lengths.

 

[qwaven]

Hey Stranman,

I believe I have similar kegerator. Mine would be the dual tap version.

I'll do some testing for the temperature and check that table to confirm what I got going on and see if that helps.

Would the lines that came with the unit not be suitable??

Thanks!!

 

[MagicMatt]

I've noticed that when I open the tap for the beer the first glass (or half of it say) is almost pure foam. After that the beer comes out fine (though a little flat) for any additional glasses to fill. Once the keg sits again for say 20 minutes or more I'll get the foam again.

This is a telltale sign of your lines not staying cold enough as they go up to the faucet. What's happening is that the lines are warming as they go up through the tower and to the faucet. Thus, if you are pouring beers pretty steadily you won't notice much of an issue as the beer coming from the keg doesn't have much time to warm enough for the CO2 to fall out of solution. But if enough time passes (usually not more than 30 minutes like you said), the CO2 will indeed come out of the beer as the warmer temps will facilitate this.

An easy test to see if this is indeed your problem is to let the keg sit for an hour or so, then draw a 1/2 pint and immediately measure the temp. Then continue to draw pints until the foaming issue is mostly subsided, and again measure the temp of the foam-free beer. These temps should be identical, and my guess is that your first 1/2 pint will be significantly warmer than the following pints.

There are a few different methods of rectifying this, and you'll find much info on them here on the forums. It usually involves adding a fan that moves air around, specifically directing it up into the tower. Many people also use copper tubing to run their lines through and up into the tower.

 

[qwaven]

Hey MagicMatt,

Thanks for your reply. I'll keep that in mind also when I test the fridge temp. I'll likely have a beer in the process so I'll try and check then and do some tests.

Cheers!

 

[Ski12568]

I have this problem as well but it is with my keezer. It is because it is in the garage and its get pretty hot in there. I just drink the flat beer faster so I can get a good pour. I tried rubbing an ice cube on the tap till it melted away, it worked a little, I didn't waste as much beer

 

[dcrog]

Is your tower insulated? This will help some if it is. If you can circulate air through the tower it will also help to keep the lines/faucets cooler.

 

[rekoob]

I have this problem as well but it is with my keezer. It is because it is in the garage and its get pretty hot in there. I just drink the flat beer faster so I can get a good pour. I tried rubbing an ice cube on the tap till it melted away, it worked a little, I didn't waste as much beer

Same here. The keezer is in the garage and after half a pint the tap is cooled down enough that the rest of the pour and/or the next pint is fine.

I'm guessing like has been stated, your fix will be cooling the lines/tower.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

 

[Balloonknot]

I get the foamy beer for my first pint. Not a big deal to me. The fix is to get the tower cold. There are a lot of products on the market to chill the tower. Most of them involve a computer fan (static pressure would be best) blowing cold air from the kegerator up into the tower via a tube. The tube is perforated or not in the tower.

A good idea that comes to mind for me is use a tube that you can run your beer lines through, something thats like 1.5 to 2 inches in diameter. Bigger the better as long as it fits into the tower. other end of the tube and hook up to a static pressure fan and blow chilled air into the tower completely enveloping your beer tubes.

really, the first foamy beer doesnt bother me enough to build a contraption or buy one online. You have to plug it in anyways.

 

[dcrog]

I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned, and when I set up two taps on my kegorator coffin box I went with a very small computer fan and a cell phone power supply, but how would an aquarium air pump work? I could likely find a few of those around here and it would move the air from the bottom to the top with just an air line.

Of course getting power to it and the possible vibration some of those make could be annoying. But it is a thought.

 

[Ski12568]

Same here. The keezer is in the garage and after half a pint the tap is cooled down enough that the rest of the pour and/or the next pint is fine.



I'm guessing like has been stated, your fix will be cooling the lines/tower.



Good luck, let us know how it goes.

I'm SOL because it's is a keezer, no tower to cool. You think a fan will help?

 

[MagicMatt]

I'm SOL because it's is a keezer, no tower to cool. You think a fan will help?

Absolutely. I bet if you did the same experiment (take the temp of a first pour, then of like say a 3rd pour), I bet your first pour will be a few degrees warmer, as the lines are more near the top of the keezer and hence slightly warmer air. The 3rd pint is using beer that was sitting at the bottom of the keg, so it'll be colder. Adding a small fan (near the bottom, blowing up) will help keep it fairly consistent throughout.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm SOL because it's is a keezer, no tower to cool. You think a fan will help?

You could also build a little insulated box to put over the taps between drinking sessions. Would have to remove tap handles if they are tall for this to work.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned, and when I set up two taps on my kegorator coffin box I went with a very small computer fan and a cell phone power supply, but how would an aquarium air pump work? I could likely find a few of those around here and it would move the air from the bottom to the top with just an air line.

Of course getting power to it and the possible vibration some of those make could be annoying. But it is a thought.

An aquarium pump won't move enough air for effective cooling.

Brew on

 

[King_Coaster]

I have foam no matter how many I pour changing the psi only determines whether I get a slow glass of foam or a fast glass of foam. I'm about to balance my kegerator with a fire axe! Tap up tops has 4 ft of 3/16" & 6 ft of 1/4" yes I understand the difference in resistance between the 2 lines but that doesn't explain why I get the same thing out of my picnic tap on the inside with 13' of 1/4". Lines are coiled on top of kegs, nothing below top of keg.

I'm starting to believe that I need a PhD and a bottomless bank account to get a f**king glass of beer.

 

[m00ps]

@King_Coaster
Maybe you've got an obstruction or something thats basically throttling your beer as it makes its way to the tap. If the flow is disrupted, anything carbed will start to release the CO2

 

[qwaven]

So I've started some experiments.

Temp Test:

I put a thermometer in the fridge on the floor along with a glass of water (dont have one that would go in the water ok)

-The water was quite cold to drink (colder than my regular fridge for sure)
-The thermometer reads about 5-6 degree's Celsius (42'ish F)

Taped the thermometer to the ceiling of the fridge.

-Thermometer reads around 10-11 degree's Celsius ( 51'ish F)

So that appears to be a fairly big difference between the bottom and top space inside the fridge.

Foam Test:

Turned the tap on for a little and the glass full of foam was almost luke-warm say.

Did not try again as I didn't want to waste beer.

I've turned the fridge temp dial up till almost max and will see if that makes any differences.

Also I noticed that the actual SS tap was quite cold after my foam test. I found this odd given the beer that came out was not.

Will continue the tests. I'm hoping after changing the temp on the fridge that my temp ranges will be more in line with what I see on the carbonation chart posted earlier. I'd like to be no higher than 38-39F.

Cheers!

 

[beerkench]

What do you mean by commercial keg? Is it a corny?


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[qwaven]

By commercial keg I mean one that I purchased from a beer retailer with a well known IPA beer inside it.

I believe the keg would be a sixth barrel which is close to the same as a corny.

 

[doug293cz]

I have foam no matter how many I pour changing the psi only determines whether I get a slow glass of foam or a fast glass of foam. I'm about to balance my kegerator with a fire axe! Tap up tops has 4 ft of 3/16" & 6 ft of 1/4" yes I understand the difference in resistance between the 2 lines but that doesn't explain why I get the same thing out of my picnic tap on the inside with 13' of 1/4". Lines are coiled on top of kegs, nothing below top of keg.

I'm starting to believe that I need a PhD and a bottomless bank account to get a f**king glass of beer.

Basically, all of your beer lines are too short, and are prone to pour foam. A 1/4" diameter beer line needs to be almost 4X longer to get the same pour rate (in order to control foaming) as a 3/16" diameter line. You need to ditch the 1/4" line and replace with 3/16" line. It is almost never appropriate for home keg systems to use 1/4" beer lines. Then make all of your lines at least 10 feet long. You need this much to get enough pressure drop between the keg & tap to prevent foam for typical carbonation levels (about 2.5 volumes.) For much lower carb levels (lower serving pressures) you could use somewhat shorter lines, and for much higher carb levels, you should use longer lines. There is a very good calculator here that will determine suitable line length, and it gives the scientific reasons why you need those line lengths. The only down side to longer than necessary lines is a slightly slower pour. Lines that are too short will give you foam. So, why skimp on length?

Also, you need to keep your lines at the same temperature as your kegs. A few degrees higher temp in the lines promotes foam generation.

Brew on

 

[qwaven]

Hey all,

Just to update that it appears after changing the temp on the fridge my beer is pouring a lot better. Will continue to monitor (and use the info provided) and see how it goes once I tap some homebrew.

Thanks all for your help.

Cheers!

 

[Ski12568]

I don't think you will be completely happy until you have better temperature control and the proper line length based of the psi and temps, and you keep the tower cool. Then you can use this calculator
http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

 

[dcrog]

An aquarium pump won't move enough air for effective cooling.

Brew on

Really?

If you have a standard round tower, insulated of course, and pump cold air from the bottom through an air line to the top so it falls back down, so to speak, how much air would really be needed?

Not trying to get off topic or crash the thread, but just thinking out loud.

 

[doug293cz]

Really?

If you have a standard round tower, insulated of course, and pump cold air from the bottom through an air line to the top so it falls back down, so to speak, how much air would really be needed?

Not trying to get off topic or crash the thread, but just thinking out loud.

Highest output aquarium air pump I could find (didn't spend a lot of time on this) puts out 25 liters per minute, which works out to 0.88 cfm. Most are probably less than this. A 4" muffin fan puts out about 100 cfm. Even with the drop in airflow due to ducting losses, it will still do much better than an aquarium pump. Aquarium pumps also tend to heat the pumped air up since they are basically diaphragm compressors. I think you would want more than 1 cfm for effective cooling. I don't have a tower, and probably never will, so can't do any experiments myself. If you think it will work, try it out and report back here.

Brew on

 

[qwaven]

I don't think you will be completely happy until you have better temperature control and the proper line length based of the psi and temps, and you keep the tower cool. Then you can use this calculator
http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

You're probably right. I will be doing some more tinkering once I'm closer to kegging my home-brew in there.

I'm also a bit confused with how to extend the lines. This kegerator came with 3/16" lines but everything I see around seems to be 5/16 or 1/4.

Cheers!

 

[King_Coaster]

You're probably right. I will be doing some more tinkering once I'm closer to kegging my home-brew in there.

I'm also a bit confused with how to extend the lines. This kegerator came with 3/16" lines but everything I see around seems to be 5/16 or 1/4.

Cheers!

Buy 3/16" online if you have to! That was the start of my 2 wk nightmare when the brewer supply guy told me that 1/4" was a must have. $70 & tons of grey hair later I had to insist that they sell me 3/16". At 8 psi I'm pouring near perfect beer. I spliced 6' on to the 4' line that came with my kegerator and at the same time added 15" of 1/2" copper pipe to my line and ran it up my tower, metal taped the bottom to my beer line to hold it in place and voila.

24 hours later I'm pouring a very cold non-foamy first glass of beer (ok I'm on my third now). Honestly stop all the freaking temp readings and thoughts of $60 tower chillin' fans and spend a couple bucks on some copper pipe and be done with it!

:rockin:

 

[storytyme]

Beer line length is a quick fix and the ID of the line. The temp though is key. Warm beer is foamy. My keezer consists of 6 kegs, but they are picnic taps and are always inside the keezer. I did this for 2 reasons. The first was the price, and the second I believe is your issue with temps. It is in my garage and being in California my garage last week was a consistent 90-100 degrees during the day and maybe 80-85 at night. Yes opening up the keeper every time to pour a pint is not ideal, but a small price to pay for a well poured beer. All my lines are minimum 10 ft with 3/16" ID and my PSI is at 12. Never had a foamy issue at all. Good luck.