Just by adding acid !

[hector]

Hi there !

The water I use for brewing has pH 7.2 and 280 ppm bicarbonates .

Is it possible to reduce the pH to 5.6 only by adding acid , so that the mash pH would be 5.3 ?!

I'm not going to use any dark malt or acid malt in the grain bill .

Hector

 

[PurpleJeepXJ]

What kind of acid?

 

[hector]

In fact , I've bought some 2-row pale malt and I want to test it to see how much gravity I can get from it .

I'm going to use citric acid because the taste is not important .

The water profile :

Ca : 78.5 ppm

Mg : 18.7 ppm

Sodium : 6.2 ppm

Sulfate : 20 ppm

Bicarbonate : 280 ppm

pH : 7.2

I'm going to use 0.48 lb of the malt .

I'd like to know how I can bring the pH down by just using citric acid and adding no salts , so that the mash pH would be 5.3 .

Hector

 

[Faseel]

Hey there Hector, have you ever heard of or used a macro/excel based program called "brew'n water"? If you have your complete water profile, your 90% there to use it. To me, the citric sounds like it will get you there, but can we see your complete water profile Total alkalinity etc?

 

[hector]

To me, the citric sounds like it will get you there, but can we see your complete water profile Total alkalinity etc?

Total Hardness as CaCO3 : 273.5

Alkalinity as CaCO3 : 229.5

Hector

 

[logdrum]

Use acidulated (or sauer) malt.

Sent from my iPod touch using HB Talk

 

[hector]

Use acidulated (or sauer) malt.

As I said , I just want to test my 2-row pale malt .

Hector

 

[944play]

Conduct the mash without adding any acid. Check pH. Adjust with acid.

 

[hector]

Conduct the mash without adding any acid. Check pH. Adjust with acid.

I need to reduce the mash pH to 5.3 , because I'm going to do the protein rest .

Can the mash pH be reduced to 5.3 that way ?

My water pH is 7.2 and it's highly alkalined ( HCO3 = 280 )

Hector

 

[Yooper]

You can reduce the mash pH by adding acid, but just reducing the mash pH won't fix the high bicarb (akalinity) level! With a bicarb level that high, your beer might get in the right mash pH by adding acid, but it won't lower the bicarb and make the beer more palatable.

 

[hector]

With a bicarb level that high, your beer might get in the right mash pH by adding acid, but it won't lower the bicarb and make the beer more palatable.

It's O.K. as far as I'm not going to brew and drink that .

I just want to reduce the mash pH to 5.3 in order to do the protein rest and then mash at 140-150 F .

It's the first time that I'm going to do a partial mash and test my 2-row pale malt to see how much gravity I can get .

Hector

 

[TromboneGuy]

If I understand correctly, just mashing in the grains will lower the pH from the water's "original" pH anyway. You may not need to add any acid.

Heck, tap water at my house comes out at a pH of 8.5 and beersmith and bru'n water haven't suggested adding any acid to the water. Last time around it even suggested I add calcium carbonate (to get closer to a Dublin profile).

 

[mabrungard]

You can reduce the mash pH by adding acid, but just reducing the mash pH won't fix the high bicarb (akalinity) level! With a bicarb level that high, your beer might get in the right mash pH by adding acid, but it won't lower the bicarb and make the beer more palatable.

Oops! Someone hasn't read Bru'n Water.

Bicarbonate is immediately neutralized into H2O and CO2 when an acid (H+) is added. Alkalinity is a measure of the carbonate (which includes bicarbonate and carbonic acid) buffering system in water.

pH is not a good indicator of a water's alkalinity, but pH reduction is a modest indicator of alkalinity reduction.

The problem with neutralizing high bicarbonate concentration with an acid is that you're also adding a lot of the anion that goes along with the H+ cation the acid supplies. The least flavorful ion in beer is the ortho phosphate ion supplied via phosphoric acid. Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acids are also options, but you might increase those Cl or SO4 concentrations too much. Lactic acid is another option, but it has a definite twang that might be produced with a large addition.

Brewing water chemistry isn't super hard, but it does take some learning. Bru'n Water is one way to do that learning. These other mineral addition calculators won't teach you a thing about what you're doing and why you're doing it. User beware!

 

[hector]

Should I also adjust my sparge water , as it has relatively high amounts of bicarbonates and can lead to tannin extraction ?!

Hector

 

[mabrungard]

Sorry for not mentioning sparge water. You absolutely MUST reduce alkalinity in sparge water. My recommendation is that sparge water alkalinity should be reduced to around 20 ppm or less to limit the potential for tannin extraction. That can correspond to pH level in the range of 6 to 5.5 depending on the starting water alkalinity. For that high alkalinity water that Hector uses, the ending pH may be on the order of 5.5. For a water with low alkalinity, it may end up needing only a modest pH reduction of 6. Sparging with really low alkalinity water like distilled or RO water can mean that no adjustment is needed at all.

 

[Yooper]

Oops! Someone hasn't read Bru'n Water.

Brewing water chemistry isn't super hard, but it does take some learning. Bru'n Water is one way to do that learning. These other mineral addition calculators won't teach you a thing about what you're doing and why you're doing it. User beware!

Actually, I have read Bru'n Water, and I thank you for it! I still am trying to learn and my beers are constantly improving due to paying attention to water chemistry and fixing my high bicarb levels.

I was trying to oversimplify, as I know Hector brews one gallon batches.

I stand by my story that adding citric acid to lower the pH level to where hector wants it at 5.3 during a mash will NOT fix the flavor issues from the high bicarb level. He states that he doesn't care if the beer is unpalatable, which doesn't make sense to me, but I pointed out that citric acid in the amounts needed probably won't make a tasty beer. That is all I was saying.

 

[williamnave]

I saw this discussion and was wondering something....

Martin, isn't simply boiling the water a simple way to reduce bicarbonate concentration while adding nothing else to the water? Is that right? If it is right, how long would you boil it?

 

[hector]

isn't simply boiling the water a simple way to reduce bicarbonate concentration while adding nothing else to the water?

Boiling will reduce bicarbonates , but concentration of Calcium ion will also decrease as CaCO3 precipitates .

Hector

 

[mabrungard]

Yooper, I agree that adding a large dose of Citric acid might not have a good taste impact. I see your point.

Regarding boiling, the effort is to drive dissolved CO2 from the water and cause calcium carbonate (chalk) to precipitate from the water. You only have to boil and stir the water for a few minutes to drive the CO2 out. You then have to let the water sit and precipitate out the chalk sediment. You then HAVE TO decant that clear water off the sediment. Its then ready to use. There is simple formula for estimating the revised post-boil bicarbonate and calcium concentrations in an article I authored on AHA's Forums here:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5792.0

Enjoy!

 

[bottlebomber]

Adjust PH with Starsan

 

[hector]

Adjust PH with Starsan

Starsan is not available to me .

Hector