Johnson (or Ranco) vs PID For Maintaining Target RIMS Temperature

[Mike123]

I know this is an old, tired subject, but it is new to me. Has anyone actually built a RIMS setup using a Johnson type controller, and if so what temperature range where you able to maintain with it? I've read that PID controllers provide tighter temperature control than Johnson controllers, but can somebody show me the data? If there is an ExBEERiment or other actual results comparing these two using actual performance data, please point me to it. I did a search here and did find this data I am looking for. (I'm aware that the Johnson controller uses an electromechanical relay, versus the PID is used to control a solid state relay.)
Thanks, and Cheers!

 

[haeffnkr]

What are you going to do with the data? Prove to yourself that cost of pid based controller is worth it?

 

[Mike123]

What are you going to do with the data? Prove to yourself that cost of pid based controller is worth it?

Mostly trying not to spend more than necessary for my application.

 

[doug293cz]

If it worked, don't you think more people would be using that type of controller?

What's the hysteresis setting for the controller you propose using? The temp range in operation will be more than the hysteresis rating. Actual range will depend on how fast you can add heat back after you go under the lower hysteresis trip point, and how fast your system will cool, after you exceed the upper trip point (although overshoot should be minimal.)

Brew on

 

[haeffnkr]

Mostly trying not to spend more than necessary for my application.

If you are getting into brewing, it aint cheap, period.
Buy once cry once.
That advice coming from someone who is on their 5 custom built and designed system and questioned everything and thought I could build it cheaper and better.

So if you are getting a rims...do it right and be done.

 

[Stand]

I have the RIMS tube and inkbird controller from Brewhardware.com, and I am very happy with it.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rimspackagetc.htm

Does Johnson make a controller with a relay capable of handling the amperage you are going to run?

The models I am familiar with are for fridges that don't flick off and on frequently.

 

[Mybuddypete]

Skip a fridge controller and an industrial PID meant to heat 10,000 gallons and buy a controller actually designed for brewing like the EZBoil. I am an industrial maintenance repairman and have worked as an industrial electrician and the EZBoil is the best designed brewing controller for the money.

 

[Mike123]

I'm not getting any responses with actual performance comparison data between a "Johnson" and "PID/SSR" temperature controller, so maybe there is not any. Inkbird offers an Electronic Temperature Controller for $35 (Amazon Prime) that I might play around with. Maximum output load is 1kW at 120V. On initial look it should work for my 120V/2kW element. If nobody produces any test data I might do an ExBEERiment with this unit.

https://www.ink-bird.com/products-temperature-controller-itc308.html

 

[Mike123]

Skip a fridge controller and an industrial PID meant to heat 10,000 gallons and buy a controller actually designed for brewing like the EZBoil. I am an industrial maintenance repairman and have worked as an industrial electrician and the EZBoil is the best designed brewing controller for the money.

OK I'll check out the EZBoil, thanks.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok ill point it out for the few seeing this thread that dont already know it... Its not so much the PID vs hysteresis control thats the big limitation here.
Its the use of a mechanical relay which is just not reliable for very long when being used to turn a heating element on and off multiple times a minute which would be required for actual temp control and regulation. The mechanical relay will experience contact failure from the heat buildup and wear from the very frequent use. If there was no mechanical relay and a ssr was used instead and the conditions like heating element power vs flow were correct, you could use a hysteresis controller but when you can get a pid with a temp probe and ssr for like $30 is it really worth it to modify one thats not suited out of the box?

EZ boil controllers are great but do cost a bit more than a lot of other pid options they are easier to use without tuning and hold temps great.

 

[Vale71]

I'm not getting any responses with actual performance comparison data between a "Johnson" and "PID/SSR" temperature controller, so maybe there is not any.

It would help a lot if you could clarify what you actually mean by "performance comparison".

 

[augiedoggy]

well conversion takes place in the wort itself not just the grainbed, that said the ideal rims tube would heat the wort consistently and evenly without having to superheat any of it to higher temps than the setpoint as that could do things like alter conversion and even denature enzymes. In reality your going to find in most rims setups the element does in fact have a hotter surface temp than the desired conversion temp. especially when step mashing or raising temps a large percentage. I think hysterisis control would be turning on and off many times a minutes ocolating between overtemp and slightly under where as a real pid when tunes gives a true steady temp output.. I Use brucontrol and software based pid as well as hysterisis with actual performance graphs in real time on my setup and this is what I find to be the difference. Also a poorly tuned pid behaves the same way with these oscillations.

 

[Vale71]

Maximum output load is 1kW at 120V. On initial look it should work for my 120V/2kW element.

Unless there is a typo in the last sentence you'll clearly burn this unit out in no time...

 

[augiedoggy]

they have a 10amp built in mechanical relay... not good for 2kw at 120w

 

[augiedoggy]

It's hard to see but this shows a tiny bit of that oscillation in temps I was talking about. I was actually playing with settings here as I increased my rims power before this and had it set to limit element max power to 75%.

 

[augiedoggy]

Here is one showing the ramp up to between 158 and 162 for head retention we do before mashout and sparging its blurry and this is when I only had 3600w or rims power at 5gpm flow.

 

[Mike123]

It would help a lot if you could clarify what you actually mean by "performance comparison".

By performance comparison I mean - data showing how well a heating control device can maintain temperature of the mash in a RIMS setup. Assuming a target temperature of say 150F, what was the resulting variation in temperature of the mash over the 60 minute mash period (or whatever time frame). Was a given controller able to keep the temperature within a window of +/- 1 degrees F, or +/- 2 degrees F of the target temperature. As an example, if the target mash temperature was 150F, did the controller keep the temperature between 149 and 151 degrees (+/- 1 degrees F)?

 

[Mike123]

Ok ill point it out for the few seeing this thread that dont already know it... Its not so much the PID vs hysteresis control thats the big limitation here.
Its the use of a mechanical relay which is just not reliable for very long when being used to turn a heating element on and off multiple times a minute which would be required for actual temp control and regulation. The mechanical relay will experience contact failure from the heat buildup and wear from the very frequent use. If there was no mechanical relay and a ssr was used instead and the conditions like heating element power vs flow were correct, you could use a hysteresis controller but when you can get a pid with a temp probe and ssr for like $30 is it really worth it to modify one thats not suited out of the box?

EZ boil controllers are great but do cost a bit more than a lot of other pid options they are easier to use without tuning and hold temps great.

Thanks augidoggy. I see your point about the electromechanical relay burning out, they have a limited number-of-cycles switching lifetime I'm sure compared to a solid state relay. Can you point me to this PID controller with temperature probe and SSR all for $30? Now that is a different story! Cheers!

 

[augiedoggy]

By performance comparison I mean - data showing how well a heating control device can maintain temperature of the mash in a RIMS setup. Assuming a target temperature of say 150F, what was the resulting variation in temperature of the mash over the 60 minute mash period (or whatever time frame). Was a given controller able to keep the temperature within a window of +/- 1 degrees F, or +/- 2 degrees F of the target temperature. As an example, if the target mash temperature was 150F, did the controller keep the temperature between 149 and 151 degrees (+/- 1 degrees F)?

again if the heating element is weak enough a hysteresis controller could do it with a temp swing of a few degrees buy just alternating on and off about second or so. and this would be with the internal relay removed and it being modified with an ssr instead. in short it would work as well because it cant really vary power output. its just on and off at a slower response rate and it wont react until targets are already met or not met meaning it will overshoot for sure unless its very low powered.

 

[augiedoggy]

ok its been a few years... They have gone up a bit but this controller works great as Ive used many.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mypin-Dual...284531&hash=item43e83b45a5:g:tj0AAOSwGotWlgbm
and this is a good ssr with heatsink ive used as well... the pt100 temp probe is what you want although for $8-12 you can find better ones that will thread into a rims tube or ever tri clamp based ones for about $12 shipped. beware of the $5 fotek knock offs they are very hit or miss with a high failure rate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25A-AC-Sol...904995?hash=item3f569a7de3:g:E50AAOSwuTxWAGOd

if you look at different mypin pids just remember you want an SNR or SSR model as they are designed to control an SSR the RNR ones have mechanical relays like the inkbird controllers we discussed.
inkbird does make PIDs as well in the same price range but ive seen a lot of complaints of jumpy temp outputs. here is one I own but havent used yet thats commonly used here https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-ITC-106VH-Digital-Pid-Temperature-Controller-thermostat-fan-Fahrenheit/222403629971?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=225086&meid=932ee2880bc54ce6823d1ef0ca3bf169&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=252817316402&itm=222403629971&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

If your element load is small this should work ok even though the ssr is a fotek..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-F-...050149&hash=item462acac0aa:g:sAkAAOSwl8NVejnP

these temp probes are much better than the stainless braided line ones I have many of both.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-PT100-...497101?hash=item2879f082cd:g:LxEAAOSwL35cktCG

the best place I found for enclosures is home depot or lowes.. they sell the same carlon boxes that companies like high gravity use for thier controllers for between 20-40 bucks. or you can mount it in an old tool box or lunch box.

 

[bracconiere]

( i just had to say when i saw "Ranco", mistook it for "Ronco"....just envisioned "As seen on TV")

 

[augiedoggy]

( i just had to say when i saw "Ranco", mistook it for "Ronco"....just envisioned "As seen on TV")

lol the "ronco dehydrator" or how about that bald spot cover spray! I bought my old boss a can for Christmas once... he had a good sense of humor.

 

[Mike123]

ok its been a few years... They have gone up a bit but this controller works great as Ive used many.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mypin-Dual...284531&hash=item43e83b45a5:g:tj0AAOSwGotWlgbm
and this is a good ssr with heatsink ive used as well... the pt100 temp probe is what you want although for $8-12 you can find better ones that will thread into a rims tube or ever tri clamp based ones for about $12 shipped. beware of the $5 fotek knock offs they are very hit or miss with a high failure rate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25A-AC-Sol...904995?hash=item3f569a7de3:g:E50AAOSwuTxWAGOd

if you look at different mypin pids just remember you want an SNR or SSR model as they are designed to control an SSR the RNR ones have mechanical relays like the inkbird controllers we discussed.
inkbird does make PIDs as well in the same price range but ive seen a lot of complaints of jumpy temp outputs. here is one I own but havent used yet thats commonly used here https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-ITC-106VH-Digital-Pid-Temperature-Controller-thermostat-fan-Fahrenheit/222403629971?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=225086&meid=932ee2880bc54ce6823d1ef0ca3bf169&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=252817316402&itm=222403629971&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

If your element load is small this should work ok even though the ssr is a fotek..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-F-...050149&hash=item462acac0aa:g:sAkAAOSwl8NVejnP

these temp probes are much better than the stainless braided line ones I have many of both.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-PT100-...497101?hash=item2879f082cd:g:LxEAAOSwL35cktCG

the best place I found for enclosures is home depot or lowes.. they sell the same carlon boxes that companies like high gravity use for thier controllers for between 20-40 bucks. or you can mount it in an old tool box or lunch box.

ok its been a few years... They have gone up a bit but this controller works great as Ive used many.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mypin-Dual...284531&hash=item43e83b45a5:g:tj0AAOSwGotWlgbm
and this is a good ssr with heatsink ive used as well... the pt100 temp probe is what you want although for $8-12 you can find better ones that will thread into a rims tube or ever tri clamp based ones for about $12 shipped. beware of the $5 fotek knock offs they are very hit or miss with a high failure rate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25A-AC-Sol...904995?hash=item3f569a7de3:g:E50AAOSwuTxWAGOd

if you look at different mypin pids just remember you want an SNR or SSR model as they are designed to control an SSR the RNR ones have mechanical relays like the inkbird controllers we discussed.
inkbird does make PIDs as well in the same price range but ive seen a lot of complaints of jumpy temp outputs. here is one I own but havent used yet thats commonly used here https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inkbird-ITC-106VH-Digital-Pid-Temperature-Controller-thermostat-fan-Fahrenheit/222403629971?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=225086&meid=932ee2880bc54ce6823d1ef0ca3bf169&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=12&mehot=pf&sd=252817316402&itm=222403629971&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

If your element load is small this should work ok even though the ssr is a fotek..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-F-...050149&hash=item462acac0aa:g:sAkAAOSwl8NVejnP

these temp probes are much better than the stainless braided line ones I have many of both.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-PT100-...497101?hash=item2879f082cd:g:LxEAAOSwL35cktCG

the best place I found for enclosures is home depot or lowes.. they sell the same carlon boxes that companies like high gravity use for thier controllers for between 20-40 bucks. or you can mount it in an old tool box or lunch box.

Gee whiz augiedoggy, I appreciate the information!

My element is rated 2kW at 120VAC, so maximum current is 2000/120 = 16.7A. I would be able to use an SSR rated at 25A. Right? This temperature probe could be threaded into a 1/2" NPT tee in line.
Total shipped for all is $60. I would need a box to mount this in. So all in about $100 but I think that is OK.

Does this package look right to you?

90-265V Digital F/C PID Temperature Controller Thermostat TA4-SNR SSR output
https://www.ebay.com/itm/90-265V-Di...er-Thermostat-TA4-SNR-SSR-output/301269919439

RTD PT100 Temp Sensors 1.5"L,1/2”NPT with Telfon Cable & Detachable Connector**
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-PT100-...elfon-Cable-Detachable-Connector/173844497101

25A AC Solid State Relay SSR with Heatsink
https://www.ebay.com/itm/25A-AC-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-with-Heatsink/272035904995

 

[augiedoggy]

Gee whiz augiedoggy, I appreciate the information!

My element is rated 2kW at 120VAC, so maximum current is 2000/120 = 16.7A. I would be able to use an SSR rated at 25A. Right? This temperature probe could be threaded into a 1/2" NPT tee in line.
Total shipped for all is $60. I would need a box to mount this in. So all in about $100 but I think that is OK.

Does this package look right to you?

90-265V Digital F/C PID Temperature Controller Thermostat TA4-SNR SSR output
https://www.ebay.com/itm/90-265V-Di...er-Thermostat-TA4-SNR-SSR-output/301269919439

RTD PT100 Temp Sensors 1.5"L,1/2”NPT with Telfon Cable & Detachable Connector**
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-PT100-...elfon-Cable-Detachable-Connector/173844497101

25A AC Solid State Relay SSR with Heatsink
https://www.ebay.com/itm/25A-AC-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-with-Heatsink/272035904995

yes, I am very confident that this combination would work very well for what you what to accomplish and down the road if you choose to repurposed all it would take is a larger ssr (the 25a one is fine for up to 5500w at 240 or close to 3000w at 120v. as you can see I used the sister model to the ta4 (the TD4) which was the same but had manual pwm mode for boil modultation in my budget 3 vessel build in my avatar picture years back. The pids always performed flawlessly. Mager is the company that makes the SSRs for auberins and the electricbrewery.com which they rebrand as their own and markup for resale.

 

[Mike123]

yes, I am very confident that this combination would work very well for what you what to accomplish and down the road if you choose to repurposed all it would take is a larger ssr (the 25a one is fine for up to 5500w at 240 or close to 3000w at 120v. as you can see I used the sister model to the ta4 (the TD4) which was the same but had manual pwm mode for boil modultation in my budget 3 vessel build in my avatar picture years back. The pids always performed flawlessly. Mager is the company that makes the SSRs for auberins and the electricbrewery.com which they rebrand as their own and markup for resale.

Thanks! What is your experience with Inkbird products. Seems this one at $119 does what I need.

https://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Temp...Thermostat&qid=1580491835&s=industrial&sr=1-1

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks! What is your experience with Inkbird products. Seems this one at $119 does what I need.

https://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Temp...Thermostat&qid=1580491835&s=industrial&sr=1-1

That will work if your load is small enough for what its rated for.