It's official starting my own brewing business!

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LLBrewer said:
The "haters" in this thread highlight what a steaming pile of horsesh!t government has created for it's citizens in the USA. I, like all of you, have run the numbers. I, like all of you, are more than willing and able to put in the hard work to produce a quality product that fellow citizens would pay for. But alas, with every agency under the sun waiting in line to take their pound of flesh, the barrier to entry becomes too great for all but the most driven, rich, or stupid. Gone are the days of the local baker, grocer, and brewer. And we all lose because if it. Rant over...
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This whole thread is so full of lulz.
 
I am not even sure what I just read, or was it a flashback. Either way Inception did a better job telling this story.
 
Yeah I would re title it but I don't see that option I looked.

I have thought about closing or deleting the whole thing too but I don't want to do that either. I figure if at the end of this tale I end up with a brew pub it will either serve as inspiration or at least an entertaining story.

I will try to summarize the whole thing.

Came up with a plan to open a brew pub where I was living. Plan was to build it as I went and not borrow money. Was working towards that goal. Then we decided to add a campground. Suddenly had $100k in funds available. Really started to work on plans for brewpub and campground. Economic adviser said we should buy an already up and running business. Began search for said business. Learned that campgrounds are labors of love and not money making propositions. Started looking for other options. Decided to buy a mom and pop hotel that had an existing bar/restaurant or the ability to add one. Began search sticking to the Northeast and Midwest. Visited many, many properties, from Maine to Minnesota. Girlfriend's parents in Minnesota health began to decline. Decision made to buy property in Minnesota and live close to her parents to help care for them. Began search for suitable properties in Minnesota preferably within an hour or two from her parents. FOUND the perfect place, made offer, offer accepted, purchase deal signed, deposit made. This was in April 2014, purchase date was for August 2014. Needed to wait to move til July for GF's youngest son to graduate high school and go to Coast Guard. Sold off two households worth of stuff kept only the bear essentials. Sold one house and rented out the other sold off one car, packed the truck and moved to Minnesota in Mid-July. Plan was to stay with GF's parents for a couple weeks til the purchase of the hotel went thru then move into hotel. Rented storage unit and emptied moving truck into it. Was so confident we were moving and I was building a 3 or 5 bbl brewery (was working on schematics with brew house manufacturer finalizing the design) that I put an ad in CL and sold off the 25+ ball and pin lock cornies I had. Had a delay in the financing and had to sign an extension to the purchase agreement for the hotel. New date was to finalize purchase by 10/31/14. Spent all of August driving around Minnesota and seeing the sites and learning about my new state. In September learned there was more problems with the financing, had to hire an attorney. During this time two things happened. One: in travelling around the state we fell in love with the area we lived at with her parents. Especially with a town close by. And that the area the hotel we were buying was in we didn't like as much. We also learned that my GF's parents were in need of more help than we anticipated and that they also loved having us live with them and after being away for 20+ years and only seeing her parents a couple times a year my GF loved being here for her parents just as much. Then we learned from the attorney that there would be a major delay in getting the money (the $100K from the beginning of the story, it's from an asset sale not a lawsuit or nothing) So we had to back out on the sale of the hotel since we weren't going to make the 10/31 deadline. It looks like we'll be living with her parents til they need a higher level of care and it'll be awhile til we have other streams of income so we started looking for jobs and both found really great jobs in the town nearby we love. So what's going to happen now? Well it looks like we are looking at building a fourplex or two duplexes in the town we love. We are trying to get her parents to agree to sell their house and live in one of the duplexes with us. They have lived in this same house for 51 years so not sure if we will convince them. My GF is finalizing floor plans for that and looking at lots. Money from the house sale in Maine finances those. We will receive the $100+K at some point, by spring at the earliest when all the red tape from that is taken care of by the lawyers. We are looking at potential properties to purchase to build a brewpub at when that money comes in. From working on the hotel deal with a bank here in MN they have told us they are very interested in financing whatever it is we decide to do. I am vague about names and places for obvious reasons. We also have non disclosure agreements we have to abide by.

That's the story in a nutshell it's been a long and crooked journey and its still not over. The goal remains the same to brew beer for a living I can't say for sure how or when it will happen but I will continue to add to the tale.
 
..

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I think this thread should be stickied (stickied? stuck? made a sticky post? whatever). Hear me out.

I think the support on this forum, and the brewing community, is incredible. There's no lack of resources, assistance, or lessons-learned here.

However, sometimes I think there is a real confirmation bias regarding how to scale up. A common theme in any thread about turning pro is "Wow you're living the dream!". And I think it's natural, brewing becomes a defacto lifestyle for many of us, or at the very least a common identity.

The problem is, even with detailed threads regarding TTB licensure, time/money set-backs, etc., there aren't any real cautionary tales like this one. No offense to OP, sounds like life just happened, but I think that should be highlighted. Life happens, and even the most well thought out plans are just that: plans.

Brewing, as complex as it can be, is easily learned and accomplished. Starting and running a business, regardless of industry, is challenging and thankless and sees many more failures than success stories.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Depressing though they may be.
 
akthor said:
No idea why some seem annoyed have you not been entertained? ;)

Well I hate being a cautionary tale but I am what I am.
Click to expand...

It certainly was a journey, and I mean no disrespect. It sounds like you came out of this situation in a place you love, with people you love, and not bankrupt so good on you.

I more meant for the zealous brewer who wants to dive right in thinking all it takes is bigger tanks.
 
Very true, I admit I was a little niave in the beginning. I think my original plan would have worked but I would have worked like a dog and if I lost the love for brewing along the way it would have stopped being fun fast. I think the way we will end up doing it now will be more enjoyable and more easily self sustainable.

The book (its available as a kindle book too) that helped me with a lot of questions was The Brewers Association Guide to Starting your own Brewery by Dick Cantwell. That and visiting any and every brewery and brew pub in Maine and most here in MN. We've picked a lot of brains ;)

I was a bit defensive and stubborn at the beginning of this story. As I've said I have learned a lot along the way. I could close this or edit things so I don't sound like such an idiot at times. But the journey is the journey and it is what it is.
 
I've been rooting for you from the beginning but come on man you've been varying levels of defensive and stubborn all the way through. I was concerned about the reality of this endeavor working out in the beginning when you were gonna pour funds into a rental that really didn't fit your needs.

Living the dream or whatever you want to call it isn't for everyone. I've had a few opportunities to go pro over the years but it just didn't seem to pan out for whatever reason. Then there's that thought in the back of my head reminding me if I have to do this for a living where the stakes are higher I probably wouldn't enjoy brewing anymore.

Life is a strange journey, gotta enjoy the ride as much as you can.

Cheers
 
akthor said:
Sorry man I was typing on my tablet while on the throne this morning. Trying to remember it all while doing my business I forgot my grammar ;)
Click to expand...

That's funny! ;)

I'm enjoying the story, though I do feel your pain, Akthor. As they say, keep on keepin' on. We're all rooting for you.
 
So, where in Minnesota are you!?
I think there are a helluva lot of us in MN that would like to meet you, hear more & have a beer.
Besides the obvious entertainment & comraderie...
The snow is getting deep & stories like this become necessary/legendary around here, in the dead of winter.
 
We're in Lichfield, actually that's what we miss most. In Maine we had a great group of friends that we'd have fun with. Haven't really found any here yet really so we'd love to hang out with people.

I got beer on tap and a 120" HD LCD movie theater/TV room/man cave. My XBOX One gamertag is THOR5734. Got 15 gallons of skeeter pee percolating. We enjoy going and finding bars that do kareoke. We do go up to the cities once a month or so to pub crawl with my GF's brothers. The crazy ice fishing culture here in MN really intrigues me so if you need a fishing buddy I'm your man. So anyone who wants to hang out send me a PM.
 
This thread is so long I don't feel bad about reviving it. I can sympathize with this experience although I believe this one trumps my own. I started down the path of creating a brewery/brewpub business plan in Jan '14 and did a full year of intense research on everything from financing, zoning, ABC laws and process, sales/revenue estimate spreadsheets that you wouldn't believe. Got a website, facebook, t-shirts, stickers, all kinds of fun swag. By Jan '15 I had finally gotten to the realization that short of an angel investor dropping a load of cash on me, it's not going to happen. If I were single and had no responsibilities then maybe a shoestring start-up could work, but I'm 31 and have a family with young children and 2 mortgages and a good career in IT. I'm in no position to complain but the fact is my situation is not so great for convincing banks or investors to fork over hundreds of G's for a brewpub start-up. Such is life, I'm still brewing a lot and keeping my eye out for opportunities.
 
OK, I know it's a year later, but I loved this thread. Read it from start to finish and I really admire your dreams. Business start ups are business start ups regardless of the industry, the vast majority of start ups on a shoe string budget fail or never start to begin with so this thread wasn't unusual in that regard. It's what I expected when I started reading post #1.

My take away is the OP's passion. You rock sir!

Thanks for the dreams OP.
 
Thanks guys the dreams not dead just life threw a couple curves. But building a new 1bbl electric BIAB system with an electric hoist to do the heavy lifting. This is at our new house on a lake in MN. It's our part time house since we live with my gf's parents full time to care for them. When they go to the next level of care then the dream will be revisited. In the meantime building the new 1bbl system and a new man cave to house it and the bar in.

Excuse the blurry pic but that's my new 40 gal pot. The PBR can next to it gives you an idea of the scale of it.

2252737_9.Jpg


2252737_7.Jpg


IMG_20151105_092831.jpg
 
Just working and still working on the house and Brewing setup. Hope to be up brewing beer again here soon. Will post pics of completed brewery and bar within the next couple of months.
 
Spartan1979 said:
I just read this thread this week. Interesting,

I was just wondering what the reasoning is for not allowing a brewery to contain a residence?
Click to expand...

I'm no expert... but it's probably because federal and state agents need to have access to the books and beer for inspections and if it's in a private residence they can't just show up and expect entry and inspection.
 
Amazing!

Alright. So I have some "Thanks" to put out there. Cape and others gave some very good information about the desperate importance of looking into local, state and federal code before you dive too deeply into a brewery business venture. When I first started dreaming about Muddy Creek Brewery I took that to heart. And I must admit this VERY THREAD was an important part of that. I have Akthor and his trials and difficulties to thank for our relative ease into licensing and code navigation.

Which brings me to my favorite part of this response, "Quote-foo"

The "haters" in this thread highlight what a steaming pile of horsesh!t government has created for it's citizens in the USA. I, like all of you, have run the numbers. I, like all of you, are more than willing and able to put in the hard work to produce a quality product that fellow citizens would pay for. But alas, with every agency under the sun waiting in line to take their pound of flesh, the barrier to entry becomes too great for all but the most driven, rich, or stupid. Gone are the days of the local baker, grocer, and brewer. And we all lose because if it.
...
Wow dude, hold on you missed the point lol. There's a reason haters was in "". I think this guy was doomed from day 1 and there was plenty of free advice from guys that were doing it right. My point was just that it's too bad you can't really create and operate a small local business anymore due to endless red tape and bureaucracy. I'm really responding to posts like from the guy that had to go through hell to have a damn sprinkler head replaced. This kind of madness places an enormous barrier to entry that almost can't be overcome by the little guy. And it's too bad. As ill-conceived as akthors plan was, he did seem to have the drive (if not the sense)to make a small brewery work.
Click to expand...
The above was actually 2 quotes.

What I wanted to point out here is that Akthor's critical mistake (and this has been stated, but perhaps not hammered home so bluntly, so completely and in as crystal clear a manner as I'm about to try to do now) is that he did not initially contact his local, state and federal zoning and TTB representatives to determine precisely what he needed to do in order to get his brewery up and running.

And that's it. That's all. He did SO much great work. He built SUCH an amazing place. He did all those amazing things with the property. His only lapse was a lack of experience in terms of the codes and licensing and the "legalese". But the really amazing and wonderful thing about his thread is that it does exactly what he sort of kids about near the end. It serves as a "cautionary tale." There are processes and steps to take in order to get your brewery up and running and most of them are slow, tedious and expensive, but keep in mind, while the government is slow, they aren't averse to you getting up and running.

Those people WANT you to start a new business. They WANT your taxable income. It's the ****ing GOVERNMENT! The faster you get going, the more money you make, the more money THEY make. Is it bureaucracy? YA! But you CAN do things to minimize the hassle and speed the process up. And the very best thing you can do is contact them from the very start and ask them what their requirements are.

Please, for the LOVE OF GOD Akthor, do this. Do it for your SWMBO, do it for yourself, do it for your children, and if your beer is ANY GOOD AT ALL, do it for your future customers. I cannot be any more blunt or any clearer. I am not being a hater. I am not wishing you ill. In fact, I am attempting to lead you on the only path that can possibly move you toward success. I truly appreciate that folks from Maine have a unique sense of rebellion and stubborn-ness. (Although I'd argue that's not at all unique.) But you can see from that comment that I did indeed suffer through every damn post of this agonizing thread just hoping and praying that you'd get your **** together and talk to the proper people about your permits and your zoning.

So please. In your new venture, do that. And don't be mad at me. Recognize that I come from a place of kindness and appreciation. Your struggles helped me to avoid the same. My path was much easier. We still had a couple surprises. The sprinkler system threw us for a loop and cost a ton of money, but we found out about it early enough that it didn't slow down our opening our overrun our budget. The electrical restrictions placed on us by our electrical contractors popped out at us late in the game, but we were able to work with the city and get it resolved because we'd been in constant communication. We didn't try to do everything ourselves.

Please, please talk to the proper authorities and make a plan. You will almost undoubtedly find that they'll be very eager to work with you and very willing to "fudge" on the small things if they are brought to their attention early enough and aren't major health concerns and as long as you have a plan to remedy them over time.

Said with love...

Quote-foo continues....

Here's the thing, @ 3.50/pint or $9/growler I OUGHT to be able to turn a profit even at small scale. I would be paying taxes and licensing fees as well as spurring my local economy. We should be encouraging these businesses not making it as difficult as possible to achieve.
Click to expand...

$2500 month rental (And we're talking ridiculously cheap rental, btw
$1800 month utils
(We'll just forego salaries and emp. taxes, despite the fact that it's completely unrealistic.)
$100 month CO2 (I spend a ton more than that, but I'm guessing for a smaller op.)
$500 month malt (Again, a fraction what I spend...)
$200 month hops (We ARE carrying an IPA, right?)
$75 month yeast (You can probably save some here by re-harvesting. But you'd need the equipment)
$30 month supplies. (TP, Napkins etc.)
$35 month pretzels

And I'm just doing something off the top of my head here before lunch. This is by no means comprehensive.
I could easily add in our marketing budget which would be the 2nd or 3rd highest line item here.
I could also add in regular maintenance costs which should run somewhere between $50 and $100 a month.
The point is, everything adds up here and there

That gives you $5245 a month. At $3.50 a pint you'd need to move 1499 pints to break even. Over a month period we'd need to average 50 pints a day. That seems fine, but remember we can only sell 3 pints per customer, per day. Quite often we only get somewhere in the zone of say 30 or 40 people in on a Monday. What if they only have 1 or 2 pints? What if some of those people are "Fishin' Hole" members and they choose to redeem their "1 free pint" that week on a given day?

In my case, I DO have employees, and I have to not only pay them a wage, but I also have to pay taxes for them on top of that. Let's also remember I have to pay both a State tax on alcohol as well as a much larger Federal tax.

So, in the end, $3.00 or even $3.50 is actually more difficult to make a profit at than you'd suspect. Certainly, small breweries DO make a profit on products in the taprooms. In fact that's the very BEST way for them to make a profit. But it's not like they're pulling down money like it grows on fabulous money trees made in Arabia. We have to be as efficient and careful in our processes as anyone.

It turns out, it's a business. Just one that you love.
 
Ok, so I know I just sounded like a total ******* there.

I'm really sorry about that. It wasn't my intention. I love your spirit. I really do. Just like you and all the other guys on here I am completely pumped about your dream and your attitude. I am thrilled that you've maintained your fire and eagerness over several years.

I said some kinda harsh things. But my intent was to shake the tree a bit and just make sure you realize that you can have both. You can have the free-wheeling "do it my way" thing and still plan it out and go by the numbers. I think the campground idea is pretty cool. I think the large-scale outdoor "hang out and chill" area is an awesome model if you can find the right space for it. Breckenridge Brewing in the Denver area is frickin' amazing if you ever get the chance to check them out. And I'm not even talking about their beer! ;-)

But to get to the dream, you gotta clean up the kitchen, help the kids do the homework, finish all the household chores and basically get all the daytime **** together so you can finally go to bed. Then, when it's nice and quiet you can go to sleep and dream away. But it's (as you've seen), a hella lot of work to get to that dreamin' stage.

I'm in your corner man. I really am. It sounds like I just kicked the **** out of your hopes and dreams, but I just tried to help. I really am sorry that I came off sounding like a total dick.
 
so glad this thread showed up on the newest forums threads section. i just assumed it was going to be another run of the mill "i had an idea to start a brewery, but then it made no sense threads", but then it turned out to be amazing.
 
This was the most entertaining 3 hours of reading that I've had in a while... Best of luck akthor and thanks for the final summary :)

For others considering going pro.

From my experience with licensing, the Federal government (TTB) is probably the easiest (not easy, but doable) paperwork to work through followed by the State, with the local zoning, planning and building departments being the most costly, complex and time consuming by far. As covered by another poster, the variables of working with local government can make or break your project with both time and money.

On the plus side, most planning/ building departments are fairly easy to talk to and are usually willing to give you some guidance on the suitability of your planed location, hopefully prior to you signing any leases or otherwise committing. Proposed improvements, building construction & occupancy loads are potential pitfalls worth reviewing. Ask lots of questions before you get started spending or building.
 
Why haven't you just started a community professional brewing club..u charge money fees to your members and you give beer away.in lie of them signing over there 200 gallons of beer they can brew a year.like a brewing club...
Or start a You brew business ...where u charge people to use your gear...that can be very profitable...
There are loopholes. .you can give all the beer away for free.if you have members in a club.that. pay dues....or even to the general public.ypu don't need a license for that. .
 
All things that were thought of but the need to move to MN to care for the aging in laws kind of paused everything.

I'm a fermenter or three and a control panel away from getting my new 1bbl brewery up and running here. Once the in laws proceed to the next level of care and we are free to go where we want the dream will be revisited.

With that in mind my new 1bbl brewery will be all SS with including fermenters. And I am using 1/2 bbl sanke kegs.
 
I feel like I got to the end of Lord of the Rings but nothing actually happened... I dream about bee keeping on a hobbyfarm, selling eggs and basically living the rest of my days brewing and getting fat.

We'll see how it goes.

Northbank woz ere ... 2016.
 
rudds67 said:
Why haven't you just started a community professional brewing club..u charge money fees to your members and you give beer away.in lie of them signing over there 200 gallons of beer they can brew a year.like a brewing club...
Or start a You brew business ...where u charge people to use your gear...that can be very profitable...
There are loopholes. .you can give all the beer away for free.if you have members in a club.that. pay dues....or even to the general public.ypu don't need a license for that. .
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how they run things in New York, but here, doing this would be illegal. You cannot open up a business and "give away" beer for a "fee" or open up a business where you just give away beer in some kind of effort to avoid excise taxes or obtaining proper permitting or licensure.

You'll get busted if your are trying to be a legitimate business trying to operate on "loopholes" that don't exist.
 
rudds67 said:
Why haven't you just started a community professional brewing club..u charge money fees to your members and you give beer away.in lie of them signing over there 200 gallons of beer they can brew a year.like a brewing club...
Or start a You brew business ...where u charge people to use your gear...that can be very profitable...
There are loopholes. .you can give all the beer away for free.if you have members in a club.that. pay dues....or even to the general public.ypu don't need a license for that. .
Click to expand...

:hs:
 
If the OP or anybody else is interested in how to start a small brewery, check out my blog:

http://crookedrunbrewing.wordpress.com/

I started at age 25 totally poor with money raised on Kickstarter. Today we are a few months away from opening a second 10 BBL location, we won gold at World Beer Cup this year, and were named best nanobrewery in the region by Washington Post. The best part is that we used an SBA loan to expand, so I barely had to give up any ownership to get capital.

One thing I have learned along the way is that the successful businesses explore every avenue to make sure they are compliant with local regulations. The beach bar that is across the street from our brewery got shut down because they were supposed to perform some work on their property to control run-off, but didn't. They got fined $500/day and had to close their outdoor seating for a month while they finally got around to making the required changes. Another area brewery had to close down their deck while they got structural drawings submitted since the county decided it was a permanent structure. Another brewery in planning got squashed by neighbors who were not OK with a farm brewery on their road, after the equipment was already purchased.

My point is that it is way better to take care of this stuff first, because depending on how deep your pockets are, being forced to close part or all of your business can sink you, and potentially leave you personally destitute.

For the expansion, the first thing we did is get a confirmation of use from the county. It's just a letter that states that the intended use is acceptable under the zoning. And that doesn't even mean that it necessarily is--then there's your building permit, MEP, etc. We are fortunate to have a lot of experience in construction.
 
Awesome man I will surely read you're blog thanks for taking the time to reply.

The dream is not dead just life has caused us to pause for awhile.
 
rexbanner said:
If the OP or anybody else is interested in how to start a small brewery, check out my blog:

http://crookedrunbrewing.wordpress.com/

I started at age 25 totally poor with money raised on Kickstarter. Today we are a few months away from opening a second 10 BBL location, we won gold at World Beer Cup this year, and were named best nanobrewery in the region by Washington Post. The best part is that we used an SBA loan to expand, so I barely had to give up any ownership to get capital.

One thing I have learned along the way is that the successful businesses explore every avenue to make sure they are compliant with local regulations. The beach bar that is across the street from our brewery got shut down because they were supposed to perform some work on their property to control run-off, but didn't. They got fined $500/day and had to close their outdoor seating for a month while they finally got around to making the required changes. Another area brewery had to close down their deck while they got structural drawings submitted since the county decided it was a permanent structure. Another brewery in planning got squashed by neighbors who were not OK with a farm brewery on their road, after the equipment was already purchased.

My point is that it is way better to take care of this stuff first, because depending on how deep your pockets are, being forced to close part or all of your business can sink you, and potentially leave you personally destitute.

For the expansion, the first thing we did is get a confirmation of use from the county. It's just a letter that states that the intended use is acceptable under the zoning. And that doesn't even mean that it necessarily is--then there's your building permit, MEP, etc. We are fortunate to have a lot of experience in construction.
Click to expand...

Been meaning to make it out to your place. Lots of beers that sound really good.
 

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