It’s time for an upgrade to my system...

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

My theory in homebrewing is to always keep improving. I try to tweak something every time I brew to make this beer better than the last. That being said, I’m looking to upgrade my process to see if I can get better in some areas where I may be falling behind.

Currently, I do brew in a bag. I mill my own grain, I do properly sized starters, even overbuild them and have a yeast bank. I ferment in a chest freezer with temperature control. I just tape the probe of the controller to the side of the vessel with some insulation, and that has worked well.

After fermentation, I cold crash, fine with gelatin, lager if necessary, and keg. I keep an extra keg filled with starsan and push it into a clean keg with co2, effectively purging any oxygen from the keg. This is where it gets a little sticky. I ferment in plastic buckets, and the grub always settles to above the spigot at the bottom, so I can’t do closed loop pressurized transfers. I open the lid of the keg and rack the beer into the keg using an autosiphon, avoiding splashing at all costs. Still, the beer in the fermentor is exposed while transferring to the keg. I’m sure there is also some mixing of oxygen and co2 in the keg as well.

So, my perceived weaknesses in my system are:

1. For aeration after chilling the wort, I just drain the kettle into the plastic bucket letting it splash about.

2. I can’t do closed loop transfers

3. I tape my temp probe to the side of my fermentor instead of using a thermowell.

Does anyone see any other areas that may need improvement? If not, which of the three concerns I have are most important to address? Finally, if it’s #2, how can I go about closed loop transfers using a plastic bucket fermentor where the grub is above the spigot? I don’t have a lot of room to store any additional equipment, so I am interested in any suggestions you may have.

 

[Jtvann]

Are you willing to spend any money. If so, I’d suggest a Ss brew bucket or similar. Seems like this would fix all your problems you’ve listed.

Trub settles to the bottom, you can do closed loop transfers, thermowell inside the wort.

For aerarion I use a diffusion stone hooked to pure O2 for about a minute set on the lowest setting. Not a biggie I don’t think, as I’ve splashed roughly directly into the fermenter with the same results. I still use the O2 just cause I’ve got it.

You wouldn’t even need the ftss system if you already have a chamber. They’re not that expensive really

 

[kh54s10]

I wonder how much all the effort to avoid oxygen at all costs really improves the beer. I have never purged a keg. I transfer from my Better Bottle fermenters to a keg or bottling bucket with an autosiphon. 102 batches so far and have never had a problem with oxidation. It is probably there, but never has been an issue for me. My friends like my beer and since they ask for more I don't think they are just being nice. I prefer most of my beers to commercial beers in the $9 - $12 a six pack range. I don't buy beers that cost more than that.

I have an air pump with an aeration stone. I run it for about 1/2 hour while the wort is in the fermentation chamber equalizing temperature.

I am going to work on pH and water before any closed transfer nonsense.

Maybe someday I will make the investment in what is needed to check for myself but it certainly isn't within my budget at this time.

 

[aprichman]

I would work on closed transfers first, fermenting in a keg and spunding would be your best bet.

Aeration is easy, you can get an aeration wand for pretty cheap.

Personally I would advise against using a thermowell unless you have a BrewPi setup that uses some sort of logic.

 

[kh54s10]

Personally I would advise against using a thermowell unless you have a BrewPi setup that uses some sort of logic.

Why? I use a thermowell with an Inkbird temperature controller. It seems to keep ambient temperature swings in the chamber smaller.

 

[SanPancho]

Biggest improvement is gonna come from ditching the buckets. Get yourself a plastic 6 gal carboy, Orange carboy cap, racking cane, and a closed transfer setup. Basically you make the diagonal tube on the orange cap a ball lock gas post, put the racking arm down the big tube with hose and a ball lock QD on the end and clamp them all down to be airtight. When it’s time to rack you only need about 2-3 psi to push the beer closed loop.

Daytripper has pictures of his set up somewhere on this forum. (He uses a glass carboy- seems scary crazy to me) . Either way it’s cheap and huge step up to o2-free closed transfers without dropping stupid money on a stainless fermenter.

Splashing wort pre-ferment is fine. A good shake or rolling around on the ground for 10min is better. Aquarium pump even better. An o2 rig is best.

Temp probe on side of carboy is fine. Just put some foam or insulation over it so it measures the carboy and not the ambient air in the cooler. You don’t need a thermowell. And give yourself a +/- 2f temp differential to help avoid big swings in temp during primary. .

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

Biggest improvement is gonna come from ditching the buckets.

Is this solely because you can closed loop transfer with the carboys, or are there other reasons to ditch the buckets?

 

[Jtvann]

I like the ease of cleaning with an open top bucket vs a carboy. I did the whole soak in hot oxyclean and all. You just can’t argue with cleaning in an open top bucket. Ss brew bucket is the same. I’ve got carboys that I’ll give you for free if you pay shipping. Glass or fermonster.

You can do closed loop with a carboy. My opinion is that glass WILL one day break. Hopefully not when you’re carrying it. They break for no reason whatsoever. There will be people that chime in and say that theirs has lasted 100+ years and never broke. Well ... it hasn’t lasted 101 and it’s not worth a trip to the hospital. Plastic carboy won’t break, but not as convenient to clean as open top.

Ss brew bucket, anvil or Chapman all hit the mark

 

[SanPancho]

Is this solely because you can closed loop transfer with the carboys, or are there other reasons to ditch the buckets?

Buckets tend not to seal well enough to keep air/o2 out, so as soon as fermentation is done you can get o2 ingress. Unless you are 100% on the mark and transfer right away, you’re likely gonna get some air in there after the yeast stops putting out co2. If your primary is done in 5 days but you dont rack until 14 or 21 days you’re getting o2 exchange. Theres also Much more possibility of air ingress when opening up bucket lid for adding dry hops vs carboy. And when you transfer out the spigot in the bucket air is filling the top of the bucket. That should give you an idea of how the seal is on a bucket.

Ignore Jtvann, he doesn’t know how to clean a carboy apparently. Maybe a quart or two of hot pbw into carboy and swish it all around to get the gunk off. Swish it like you mean it. I do it at least twice. And every once in a while when you get a crusty bit that wont come off, you add only about a pint of pbw and a small dish cloth. Swirl like you mean it. The rag wipes down the inside and removes any stuck on bits. Easy peasy.

 

[kh54s10]

Buckets tend not to seal well enough to keep air/o2 out, so as soon as fermentation is done you can get o2 ingress. Unless you are 100% on the mark and transfer right away, you’re likely gonna get some air in there after the yeast stops putting out co2. If your primary is done in 5 days but you dont rack until 14 or 21 days you’re getting o2 exchange. Theres also Much more possibility of air ingress when opening up bucket lid for adding dry hops vs carboy. And when you transfer out the spigot in the bucket air is filling the top of the bucket. That should give you an idea of how the seal is on a bucket.

Ignore Jtvann, he doesn’t know how to clean a carboy apparently. Maybe a quart or two of hot pbw into carboy and swish it all around to get the gunk off. Swish it like you mean it. I do it at least twice. And every once in a while when you get a crusty bit that wont come off, you add only about a pint of pbw and a small dish cloth. Swirl like you mean it. The rag wipes down the inside and removes any stuck on bits. Easy peasy.

I don't think air getting into buckets is nearly as big a problem as made out. Tens of thousands maybe hundreds to millions of homebrewers use buckets. Many do open fermentations. They make beer and most make very good beer.

I hope your swirling with a dish cloth to clean a carboy is with a PET one and not glass. If glass you are really risking serious injury. And glass ones are heavy. I agree for PET carboys. I use buckets and PET carboys. I prefer cleaning the PET ones. It takes longer since I fill it all the way with water and Oxyclean and leave it to soak for at least several hours. Then I siphon the water out rather than lifting to dump it. After that rinse, swirl the cloth, rinse etc.

 

[Jtvann]

Ignore me?

I never said I couldn’t get them clean. I just said a bucket is easier. Love to hear your logic behind how a carboy is.

Have you ever been lazy and not gotten right around to cleaning a carboy after transferring to a keg. I have. Know what happens when that gunk dries on hard? Soak in hot pbw, oxyclean, scrub with a brush, spray with a carboy washer, scrub, rinse ... still see spots, rinse scrub. It’ll eventually get clean.

With a bucket ... you reach your hand in and scrub it once and you know it’s clean.

Ignore me though. That logic just doesn’t make sense.

 

[specharka]

I don't think air getting into buckets is nearly as big a problem as made out. Tens of thousands maybe hundreds to millions of homebrewers use buckets. Many do open fermentations. They make beer and most make very good beer.

I hope your swirling with a dish cloth to clean a carboy is with a PET one and not glass. If glass you are really risking serious injury. And glass ones are heavy. I agree for PET carboys. I use buckets and PET carboys. I prefer cleaning the PET ones. It takes longer since I fill it all the way with water and Oxyclean and leave it to soak for at least several hours. Then I siphon the water out rather than lifting to dump it. After that rinse, swirl the cloth, rinse etc.

I don’t want to argue about the merits for getting away from plastic fermenters, but this whole “glass carboys can kill” thing is more than a bit silly. PET carboys degrade over time, accumulate VOCs, and are oxygen permeable. So long as you are taking good preventative care of your glass carboy there’s no reason to fear using them. Use milk crates or similar to move the carboy, don’t subject them to thermal shock (no boiling / freezing), and if you use them for closed transfers, use the minimum amount of pressure to push the beer out (2-3 psi), no more.

I recently purchased a Fermonster and I absolutely hate it — so delicate that the slightest nudge or movement causes oxygen ingress. The $10-15 extra investment in a glass carboy is well worth the difference, or if you have the means for it, a corny keg makes a great fermenter. I too perform closed transfers using carboys, and regularly use 5-10 year old vessels with no issues.

 

[kh54s10]

I don’t want to argue about the merits for getting away from plastic fermenters, but this whole “glass carboys can kill” thing is more than a bit silly. PET carboys degrade over time, accumulate VOCs, and are oxygen permeable. So long as you are taking good preventative care of your glass carboy there’s no reason to fear using them. Use milk crates or similar to move the carboy, don’t subject them to thermal shock (no boiling / freezing), and if you use them for closed transfers, use the minimum amount of pressure to push the beer out (2-3 psi), no more.

I recently purchased a Fermonster and I absolutely hate it — so delicate that the slightest nudge or movement causes oxygen ingress. The $10-15 extra investment in a glass carboy is well worth the difference, or if you have the means for it, a corny keg makes a great fermenter. I too perform closed transfers using carboys, and regularly use 5-10 year old vessels with no issues.

Tell that to all these people: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium.376523/

And IMO, the problem of PET carboys degrading over time is nonsense. I have all of the ones I have ever bought and all of them are still in service. The newest one is probably 5 years old. The first 2 are 7 years 2 months old. They probably do accumulate VOCs, but?? I have done wines that sat in the PET carboys for up to 6 months with no signs of oxygen permeability. That is a non issue. I use 5-7 year old vessels with no issues also.

I have yet to do a closed transfer. I think the process is way over-rated.

 

[specharka]

Tell that to all these people: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium.376523/

And IMO, the problem of PET carboys degrading over time is nonsense. I have all of the ones I have ever bought and all of them are still in service. The newest one is probably 5 years old. The first 2 are 7 years 2 months old. They probably do accumulate VOCs, but?? I have done wines that sat in the PET carboys for up to 6 months with no signs of oxygen permeability. That is a non issue. I use 5-7 year old vessels with no issues also.

I have yet to do a closed transfer. I think the process is way over-rated.

I’m sure there’s people that have gotten injured from boiling wort and carbon monoxide inhalation too, that doesn’t make kettles or gas burners inherently dangerous. You just have to understand the risks and use appropriate PPE for the situation.

It’s certainly possible that you have never seen any effects from oxidation, but there’s scientific evidence that indicates oxygen permeability plays a detrimental effect on beers fermented in plastic:
http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/16/fe...stic-pet-vs-glass-carboy-exbeeriment-results/

 

[SanPancho]

Ignore me?

Yes. if you wait two weeks before you clean your fermenters then you'll obviously have a harder time. but in that case a hot water soak and then the rag swirl does the job just the same. in the few times ive been lazy and/or forgotten about a carboy, that still did the trick.

was not my intention to open up a discussion about the merits of glass vs plastic carboys. everyone can decide for themselves. but for me- when you're pressurizing the vessel to do a closed transfer i see no reason to risk it with glass. ymmv.


as to cleaning, i rarely do a soak. just as i noted above. maybe a half gallon, swirl like crazy. dump. do it again. anything left gets the rag treatment. hot rinse and they're good as new.

if we can all get back to the OP's questions- carboys are better for defeating o2 ingress than buckets. can still make good beer in buckets.

the two statements are not mutually exclusive.

 

[GPP33]

This is a great thread, why do people get so defensive of their chosen technique? I’m guilty of it too…..but at least try to limit it to where I have some data or experience to back it up, not “I’ve only ever done it this way so it’s the best”, or “I’ve never done that so it sucks”.


There’s lots of things in brewing that will only have a very minor, and many times, unperceivable difference. There’s also no shortages of opinions (see previous posts) about the best way to brew. I approach improvements from a logical standpoint (considering costs) and do everything I can to gain every small improvement knowing that the sum of a few unperceivable improvements will add up to a perceivably better beer.


You can make great beer many different ways. With regards to your list:

-Aeration – Everyone agrees it’s scientifically proven that yeast need Oxygen right? Oxygen stones and tanks are cheap.

-Closed loop transfers – Everyone agrees oxygenating beer post fermentation is bad (with a few exceptions) right? Why let it get exposed to air in cold crash or transfer.

-Thermowell –you went to the expenses of getting a temp controlled fermentation chamber, why not spend the extra $15 and actually measure the beer?


A couple more:

-Do you have secondary regulators so you can serve at different carbonation levels?

-Do you do water?

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

Yes. I have secondary regulators and I do water as well. I have a couple of glass carboys. I may have to try a closed loop transfer with one of them and see how that goes. I’m not afraid of using the glass, I use them often, but I do respect them.

 

[eric19312]

Lol I could say yes but... to just about every item on your list GPP. Love those “everyone knows” ideas especially.

Anyway I’ll offer compromise on the fermentor question. Speidel plastic tanks. Airtight enough for pressure transfers. Thick walls oxygen permeability probably similar to glass carbon with rubber stopper. Large opening to get in there and clean with a sponge. The 60L tank will ferment a half barrel with blowoff tube instead of airlock.

 

[HopSing]

Check out this zombie thread that recently came back to life.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ainless-fermenter-for-50.646313/#post-8380256

Just another option.

I'm +1 for moving away from glass carboys, but if they appeal to you, then the milk crate idea for transporting them makes a lot of sense. The nylon carboy straps, even the good ones, give a false sense of security in my opinion.

As for pressure transfer using the concepts in the above mentioned thread using a stainless kettle as a fermenter, I'm pretty sure you could poke another hole in the lid and figure out how to mount a ball lock or pin lock post using a weldless bulkhead and a thread adapter then put a stainless racking cane in the airlock bung and pressurize the vessel. Guessing that would work with a plastic lid on a bucket too. Just add pressure slowly to avoid popping the lid off.

I'd love to hear the results of doing a pressure transfer for 1/2 the batch, then rip the lid off and use an auto-siphon to transfer the other 1/2 of the batch to another keg (or bottles) to see if the pressure transfer is really making a difference in the final beer. I do believe that oxidation does occur during kegging or bottling, but I don't think it makes a ton of difference in the final product. If the beers I make are oxidized, then I like oxidized beer.

~HopSing.

 

[Tribe Fan]

Good thread on the effects of oxidation on bottled beer. Conclusion: Purging headspace matters, to what extent is up to you.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...dspace-o2-in-a-bottle-conditioned-ipa.653798/

 

[Mer-man]

Use a corny. Apparently you lucky folks can even find 10gal corny kegs in the US. I'd just use two if I wanted a bigger batch.

 

[Staticsouls]

Closed transfer will make the biggest difference imo. You decide how.

Limiting o2 exposure was the single greatest improvement I made. How you do is up to u.

 

[madscientist451]

which of the three concerns I have are most important to address? Finally, if it’s #2, how can I go about closed loop transfers using a plastic bucket fermentor where the grub is above the spigot?

What's your budget for an upgrade?
You can add a racking arm to a Speidel fermeter:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...w-with-stainless-rotating-racking-arm.449546/

Or, like someone already said, ferment in kegs, cut the diptubes off a few inches from the bottom, closed transfers should be pretty simple.

 

[logdrum]

What's your budget for an upgrade?
You can add a racking arm to a Speidel fermeter:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...w-with-stainless-rotating-racking-arm.449546/

Or, like someone already said, ferment in kegs, cut the diptubes off a few inches from the bottom, closed transfers should be pretty simple.

Gotta chime in on the Speidel love. I don't even use a racking arm, just flip the spigot receiver 180º. I did add the NorCal gas in bulkhead, which allows o2 free tranfers. Big thumbs up!

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions....l-Lock-Gas-In-with-Pressure-Relief-Valve.html

 

[logdrum]

Gotta chime in on the Speidel love. I don't even use a racking arm, just flip the spigot receiver 180º. I did add the NorCal gas in bulkhead, which allows o2 free tranfers. Big thumbs up!

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions....l-Lock-Gas-In-with-Pressure-Relief-Valve.html

I did replace the PRV spring with a keg poppet spring (slightly shortened) & can now scrub the batch's corny keg w the fermentation Co2

 

[SanPancho]

do the same thing with the plastic carboy and serving keg. basic gas to liquid jumper from the orange cap to the corny, and a spund on the gas in of the keg.

takes a bit of space, but works like a charm.

 

[seatazzz]

FWIW, I've found the BEST insulator for a temp probe on the side of the fermenter is a scrubby sponge. I used styrofoam for the first few brews and the duct tape I used to stick it there broke it up pretty quick, not to mention the cold when it came to cold crashing. The sponge gives me just the right amount of surface area to cover the probe completely and is squishy enough to keep the probe tight to the side of the fermenter. Fermometer jived with the temperature controller right on the money too. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jtvann]

To try to bring it back to the best of both worlds, as I mentioned in my very first post ... the Ss brew bucket, or similar. It has the advantages or all, without the disadvantages.

I used glass carboys, and did pressurized transfers with them. They worked flawlessly for me. I WAS able to clean them for about a year. I had no real trouble doing it.

Speaking personally, I read one horror review in the glass carboy section that changes my perspective. A guy cut a tendon in his right hand that affected his grip. I am law enforcement. I read that as a career ending accident for a hobby. If I can’t grip my gun, I can’t have a job that supports my family. I was always careful with my practices, but I saw a friend brewing one night break the bottom out of a carboy when transferring from the brew kettle. It’s was in my mind sufficiently cooled. It still broke. It was worth 200 bucks to me for peace of mind.

I researched all available options that fit the bill of doing what I wanted. Closed transfer. Light exclusion. Conical bottom. Easier to clean. The Ss brew bucket fit all those bills. I could have gone to a Unitank or Chronical, but they didn’t fit my fermentation chamber. The brew bucket fit my needs.