Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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Just spitballing here , trying to think of what they could be doing differently process wise. What does the group think about them NOT oxygenating the wort and over pitching the dry yeast?
 
droder1 said:
Just spitballing here , trying to think of what they could be doing differently process wise. What does the group think about them NOT oxygenating the wort and over pitching the dry yeast?
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I don't think pitch rates are really that important, and if anything, I would imagine stressing the (right) yeast leads to the desirable esters found in TH IPAs. This would imply underpitching rather than overpitching. When the yeast drop out of solution, hop compounds can be pulled with them as well, so another "reason" not to overpitch I suppose.

Hot side oxygenation seems to be a thing in malt-forward beers (e.g. LoDO), but I don't know about commercial scale effects. I'd guess less O2 could stress the yeast during growth though?

My two cents on what makes the TH character: 1) malt bill, 2) water chemistry, 3) yeast selection and fermentation profile, 4) carbonation under pressure. These seem obvious, but I think its all of them in concert that makes the final product sing.
 
NJGeorge said:
Not sure if anyone has ever noticed this, but I get a coffee bean like note from every treehouse beer I've had. Is this from the malt used? Buiscut maybe? I've never used it before so I wouldn't know. Anyone else ever taste/smell what I'm referring to?
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I don't get coffee. I do get a toasted bread / bread crust type of thing in a couple of their core offerings.

For the biscuit believers, was looking on BSG's website looking at Oat Malt. "Most do not use oats" means some are using oats and they aren't using "flaked anything" so that leaves malted oats and GNO.

Anyway notes for Crisp's Malted Oats:

"In brewing, when mixed with barley malt, naked oat malt can improve mouthfeel and introduce notes of a toasted, biscuity aroma and palate"

Meanwhile check out how Simpson's describes their oat malt:

"Simpsons Malted Oats have large, thick husks which helps with run
off. Once you crack it open, the creaminess of the oats releases a silky
smoothness which imparts a sumptuous velvety texture to your beer.
This fullness allows it to take as many hops as you can throw at it for a
juice bomb, providing balance.
...
Malted Oats is a hugely versatile product that can be added to any beer style to impart a creamy, velvety smooth mouthfeel."

https://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/our-malts/malted-oats/

Edit: One more thing — when they were taking questions on Twitter the other day, someone asked do you use oat malt. No answer.
 
melville said:
I don't get coffee. I do get a toasted bread / bread crust type of thing in a couple of their core offerings.

For the biscuit believers, was looking on BSG's website looking at Oat Malt. "Most do not use oats" means some are using oats and they aren't using "flaked anything" so that leaves malted oats and GNO.

Anyway notes for Crisp's Malted Oats:

"In brewing, when mixed with barley malt, naked oat malt can improve mouthfeel and introduce notes of a toasted, biscuity aroma and palate"

Meanwhile check out how Simpson's describes their oat malt:

"Simpsons Malted Oats have large, thick husks which helps with run
off. Once you crack it open, the creaminess of the oats releases a silky
smoothness which imparts a sumptuous velvety texture to your beer.
This fullness allows it to take as many hops as you can throw at it for a
juice bomb, providing balance.
...
Malted Oats is a hugely versatile product that can be added to any beer style to impart a creamy, velvety smooth mouthfeel."

https://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/our-malts/malted-oats/

Edit: One more thing — when they were taking questions on Twitter the other day, someone asked do you use oat malt. No answer.
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Just used oat malt in my recent with Kölsch yeast, best neipa I have made to date.
 
Has anyone seen the bags of malt that TH has in their brewhouse? I'm looking at ordering some Fawcett Pearl and Oat Malts for my next NE IPA attempt, maybe 80/20 ratio?
 
isomerization said:
Has anyone seen the bags of malt that TH has in their brewhouse? I'm looking at ordering some Fawcett Pearl and Oat Malts for my next NE IPA attempt, maybe 80/20 ratio?
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No clue what's in the Silo but a lot of the grain I saw was Weyerman. Pilsner and Munich II... huge pallets of both.
 
couchsending said:
No clue what's in the Silo but a lot of the grain I saw was Weyerman. Pilsner and Munich II... huge pallets of both.
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I've got pics of Rahr, which inconveniently aren't labeled as to grain type on the front. I assume their 2-row and/or their Pale Malt.
 
NJGeorge said:
Not sure if anyone has ever noticed this, but I get a coffee bean like note from every treehouse beer I've had. Is this from the malt used? Buiscut maybe? I've never used it before so I wouldn't know. Anyone else ever taste/smell what I'm referring to?
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Never noticed this flavor in TH beers, but I do get an under-roasted coffee flavor in most of the hoppy Alchemist beers, to the point I have a hard time drinking them. One of the common sources for this type of flavor comes from sulfur compounds, including mercaptan. Such compounds are also found in hop varieties like Apollo and hop extracts. I've always assumed Apollo was to blame for the coffee flavor of the Alchemist beers.
 
I get a lot of heavy biscuit flavors in Treehouse core offerings. I asked on twitter though and they say no aromatic or biscuit. I was able to work out a grain bill that is 85% Weyermann Pilsner with some melanoidin and either Vienna or Munich 2. They work out very similar in the recipe so each can be swapped in very easily. That's only 3 malts and covers the biscuit/bread/cracker flavors.
FWIW - my most recent brew isn't expressing any witbier or phenolic character. It's just very citrusy.
 
The color issues of their recipe someone mentioned at some point in this thread and the sulfur of Heady are both because of Low Oxygen brewing. Antioxin in particular. Low oxygen brews can have a 20 percent lighter color than expected and sulfur is a sometime byproduct of sodium metabisulfite.
 
with the primary additions of hops being in the cold side, I doubt that they are using SMB for oxidation prevention. it can all be done with yeast. I can't speak for Heady, but I haven't ever gotten a whiff of sulfur from TH.
 
The sulfur you'd smell/taste is H2S or S02. Mercaptans have a completely different character and manifest in ways other than sulfury/eggy. The most common form is lightstruck.

Moreover, I have yet to see any evidence of SMB use in virtually any American craft beer. Where is the evidence for this?
 
You are right about that. I was wrong about the antioxin. The post that suggested that on another board is clearly speculation. I apologize for reading that as fact and posting it here.
 
butter08 said:
You are right about that. I was wrong about the antioxin. The post that suggested that on another board is clearly speculation. I apologize for reading that as fact and posting it here.
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no need to apologize profusely :mug: we're all trying to figure this out together. the very nature of the problem means that we will be wrong orders of magnitude more often than right
 
I'm getting ready to brew a batch myself consisting of 2row, light on Vienna, carapil, flaked oat and honey malt. Cacl & gypsum RO additions. Any suggestions on a fermentation schedule to try? I have s-04, wb-06, t-58.
 
Just an update on my brew using the above yeast and the same schedule as @marshallb but all fermentation was done at around 70 degrees room temp. Definitely no treehouse flavors. The color of the beer is so much lighter than I expected due to using a little bit more water than called for. Flavor is good but I can't put my finger on it or compare it to anything I'm used to. Very drinkable and enjoyable, just not what we're going for here. Abv came out to 6.5% and this beer goes down like water. No tropical, no juicy fruit, no banana, no bubble gum flavors. Just very clean, dry and hoppy tasting beer. As I said before, drinks more like a Cali beer without the bitterness. Hmm

IMG_3487.jpg
 
NJGeorge said:
Just an update on my brew using the above yeast and the same schedule as @marshallb but all fermentation was done at around 70 degrees room temp. Definitely no treehouse flavors. The color of the beer is so much lighter than I expected due to using a little bit more water than called for. Flavor is good but I can't put my finger on it or compare it to anything I'm used to. Very drinkable and enjoyable, just not what we're going for here. Abv came out to 6.5% and this beer goes down like water. No tropical, no juicy fruit, no banana, no bubble gum flavors. Just very clean, dry and hoppy tasting beer. As I said before, drinks more like a Cali beer without the bitterness. Hmm
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What was your grist like? FG?
 
Brewindog said:
I'm getting ready to brew a batch myself consisting of 2row, light on Vienna, carapil, flaked oat and honey malt. Cacl & gypsum RO additions. Any suggestions on a fermentation schedule to try? I have s-04, wb-06, t-58.
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Less than 50:30:20 and more 90:7:3 is all I can offer.
 
@melville Grist per below:
2 row pale 10lbs
Flaked barely 4oz
Flaked oats 4oz
Flaked white wheat 4oz
Caramel/crystal 60L 4oz
Honey malt 4oz
OG- 1.062
FG- 1.012
 
NJGeorge said:
Just an update on my brew using the above yeast and the same schedule as @marshallb but all fermentation was done at around 70 degrees room temp. Definitely no treehouse flavors. The color of the beer is so much lighter than I expected due to using a little bit more water than called for. Flavor is good but I can't put my finger on it or compare it to anything I'm used to. Very drinkable and enjoyable, just not what we're going for here. Abv came out to 6.5% and this beer goes down like water. No tropical, no juicy fruit, no banana, no bubble gum flavors. Just very clean, dry and hoppy tasting beer. As I said before, drinks more like a Cali beer without the bitterness. Hmm
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So, if anyone to recalls the S-04 isolate was used to make a NE IPA, alongside 1318. Brews were a weak apart, but the final product came out very similar.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7963050&postcount=23

That leads me to believe S-04 should be the major component, but something was clearly missing. My intention is to go with 60:20:20 (favoring S-04) and ferment on the warm side (probably free rise from 72F. I also intend to keg condition with CBC-1 and the 2nd dry hop.

NJGeorge said:
@melville Grist per below:
2 row pale 10lbs
Flaked barely 4oz
Flaked oats 4oz
Flaked white wheat 4oz
Caramel/crystal 60L 4oz
Honey malt 4oz
OG- 1.062
FG- 1.012
Click to expand...

What was your hop schedule like? And would you describe your other NE IPA attempts as hitting the mark? No disrespect intended, just curious.
 
isomerization said:
So, if anyone to recalls the S-04 isolate was used to make a NE IPA, alongside 1318. Brews were a weak apart, but the final product came out very similar.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7963050&postcount=23

That leads me to believe S-04 should be the major component, but something was clearly missing. My intention is to go with 60:20:20 (favoring S-04) and ferment on the warm side (probably free rise from 72F. I also intend to keg condition with CBC-1 and the 2nd dry hop.



What was your hop schedule like? And would you describe your other NE IPA attempts as hitting the mark? No disrespect intended, just curious.
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Do you have a link to the recipe that you used? Is it Braufessor's 1418?
 
What was your hop schedule like? And would you describe your other NE IPA attempts as hitting the mark? No disrespect intended said:
No disrespect taken. This is all experimentation for the love of good beer! All the other NE IPA's I have made were with Conan and were hitting the mark, except they would clear after a few weeks. Currently have a Citra IPA with 1318 (first time using it) so Ill see how that comes out.

Hop schedule was similar to Nate's Hoppy Things recipe:
.25oz warrior @ 60min
1oz. Amarillo @ 20min
1oz. Centennial @ 20min
1oz. Citra @ 5min
1oz. Simco @ 5min
1.5oz. Simco @ flame out
1oz. Amarillo @ flame out
1oz. Centennial @ flame out

1st dry hop after two days fermenting:
1oz. each of Amarillo, Citra and Simco

2nd dry hop 3 days after 1st dry hop:
2.5oz. Mosaic and .5oz of Citra
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I went 20% WB-06 and got tons of banana, even fermenting lower at 66 F until krausen dropped then let it carry itself up to 70 F to finish out/diacetyl rest.

Maybe fermenting at 72 would favor bubblegum over banana?
 
skibb said:
I went 20% WB-06 and got tons of banana, even fermenting lower at 66 F until krausen dropped then let it carry itself up to 70 F to finish out/diacetyl rest.

Maybe fermenting at 72 would favor bubblegum over banana?
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Man, the guy at my lhbs tried to tell me he only gets clove from that strain, so I didn't bother with it this round. I'll have to try it next time
 
skibb said:
I went 20% WB-06 and got tons of banana, even fermenting lower at 66 F until krausen dropped then let it carry itself up to 70 F to finish out/diacetyl rest.

Maybe fermenting at 72 would favor bubblegum over banana?
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I think I'm doing 15/10 on the WB-06/T-58 next time. The thing is I think you need banana to get to something like bubble gum, it just has to be at such a level that it doesn't exceed the fruity esters. Even the "bubblegum" isn't something most people say about TH, some people pick up on it, but I think whatever wb-06 and t-58 are contributing are below the threshold level for most people. It's possible that they might be there for other reasons to — attenuation, haze, mouthfeel and god knows what. Like — why is T-58 in double shot?
 
TheHairyHop said:
Man, the guy at my lhbs tried to tell me he only gets clove from that strain, so I didn't bother with it this round. I'll have to try it next time
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I did't get exactly banana, but something very Hefe-ish in a weird banana way.
To be fair, with a week in the keg it sort of all came together and was really good, but still I think revealing too much of itself.
 
melville said:
View attachment 408109

I'm on like... Day 3 in the keg with CBC-1 and dry hop. Some carb in there already.

Reminder:
90% 2-row
5% carapils
5% C-20
Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic
S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3%
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I can't remember if its you or Marshall that is using the staggered pitching approach? I'd prefer to pitch everything at the same time (at least for the first try). I'm wondering if 70:15:15 might be more appropriate or even 60:30:10 (S-04:T-58:WB-06)? Not brewing until next weekend.
 
Though inconvenient, the only issue with pitching at the same time is that you will lose a critical element of control. By pitching a yeast early, you have the ability to coax esters out at a higher temperature in the beginning of fermentation. Then you could reduce temperatures to pitch the remainder of the yeast to mitigate undesirable esters/over attenuation/lost aroma etc.

Prior to the fire, I had those esters going on. I intended to move the fermenter to a cool chamber, but was unable to due to no power. Following fermentation, all of those esters were gone and the beer was too dry.
 
melville said:
View attachment 408109

I'm on like... Day 3 in the keg with CBC-1 and dry hop. Some carb in there already.

Reminder:
90% 2-row
5% carapils
5% C-20
Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic
S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3%
Click to expand...

Looks good! So would you describe it as Treehouse - ish? Is it dry? Also did you pitch the S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3% all at the same time?
 
isomerization said:
I can't remember if its you or Marshall that is using the staggered pitching approach? I'd prefer to pitch everything at the same time (at least for the first try). I'm wondering if 70:15:15 might be more appropriate or even 60:30:10 (S-04:T-58:WB-06)? Not brewing until next weekend.
Click to expand...

I did it all together.
 
NJGeorge said:
Looks good! So would you describe it as Treehouse - ish? Is it dry? Also did you pitch the S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3% all at the same time?
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I don't think I'm tree house-y right now, I'm hoping I can get over there Saturday to get a fresh sense as to why.. It is dry, 1.011 if I remember correctly, but I could see with the right ratio and a similar level of hop saturation getting there. Pitched all at the same time.
 
melville said:
I don't think I'm tree house-y right now, I'm hoping I can get over there Saturday to get a fresh sense as to why.. It is dry, 1.011 if I remember correctly, but I could see with the right ratio and a similar level of hop saturation getting there. Pitched all at the same time.
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Its not carbonated yet right, so let's hope the CBC-1 natural route will produce dividends...
 
So in order to get that bubble gum flavor balance we just need to match the ppm of isoamyl acetate to that of a TH beer. Piece of cake! /s
 

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