Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[couchsending]

Drinking a C61 right now. It’s amazing how the aroma is pretty much all yeast esters but the flavor is all hops. I got some C61 as it uses mostly 06297 which is now called Lotus. I’ve got a bunch of it and was hoping this beer would help tell me a little about what the hop is like... nope. Maybe on flavor but that’s it.

The mouthfeel still amazes me. It’s so intense at the front of the pallet then completely falls away and leaves you with just mouth coating hop oils. Zero lingering bitterness. Their beers are definitely on the higher end of carbonation as well.

In regards to the elevated potassium levels.... I’m not 100% sure that’s from KCL. A lot of the downstream hop products like tetra and hexahop are made using potassium so that could potentially come into play when evaluating finished beer potassium content. Again I’m not sure but taking into account the almost comical head their beers have it wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[beervoid]

Forgive me if I missed this, but how much KCL would you add? More than 10ppm can be bad for yeast health and become a potential laxative no? The reason I ask is because I cannot keep the Ca at 100 and bring the CaCl up to 150ppm. I also read that 2g of KCL in 5 gallons of wort is something like 50.2ppm... I'm confused...

I dont think this is true. If you look at the mineral profiles of beers pottassium can be over 1000ppm.
I'm assuming this is from the malt.

 

[thehaze]

I've used up to 3.2 gr of KCl in a 6 gal batch and nothing bad happened. What good happened was that keeping the Ca low, helped me bump Cl without adding Ca.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

FWIW ... It could be possible they were using the flasks to prop up dry yeast or something along those lines...

I KNOW I KNOW ... you're not supposed to do that with dry yeast.

BUT...I heard on a Brulosophy podcast recently that people do it and side by side doesn't make a difference. Subjective - I know. But maybe there is something to this process that helps coax the esters a little more? Or maybe its just easier for getting the ratios right.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Also, just a fun fact: Nate used to culture his own yeast for pizza crust when he was in his teens. I know nothing about baking with yeast from scratch and how it may apply (if at all) to yeast handling in brewing. Maybe they use a strain of pizza crust yeast?! Jk....

https://beerconnoisseur.com/articles/nate-lanier-tree-house-brewing-co

Here is the article.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Their house yeast definitely includes some kind of pizza crust component

 

[HopVision]

Drinking a C61 right now. It’s amazing how the aroma is pretty much all yeast esters but the flavor is all hops. I got some C61 as it uses mostly 06297 which is now called Lotus. I’ve got a bunch of it and was hoping this beer would help tell me a little about what the hop is like... nope. Maybe on flavor but that’s it.

The mouthfeel still amazes me. It’s so intense at the front of the pallet then completely falls away and leaves you with just mouth coating hop oils. Zero lingering bitterness. Their beers are definitely on the higher end of carbonation as well.

In regards to the elevated potassium levels.... I’m not 100% sure that’s from KCL. A lot of the downstream hop products like tetra and hexahop are made using potassium so that could potentially come into play when evaluating finished beer potassium content. Again I’m not sure but taking into account the almost comical head their beers have it wouldn’t surprise me.

I have not gotten that kind of head on any beer without using flaked adjuncts, especially wheat and rye. I'm not sold on them not using them... also, read somewhere a while back about a brewer putting yeast into secondary (no idea what temp) to create haze.

One thing I want to mention being from the West Coast, is that there is a distinct difference in aroma from east to west.. process must be different somehow. But the last batch I was able to sample from Tree House was not as epic as I had remembered. Either the west is catching up, or growing pains in the new brewery... You mention yeast aroma, all I got was hops. BUT I remember that unique yeast aroma you are probably describing!

 

[couchsending]

I have not gotten that kind of head on any beer without using flaked adjuncts, especially wheat and rye. I'm not sold on them not using them... also, read somewhere awhile back about a brewer putting yeast into secondary (no idea what temp) to create haze.

There are a lot of products available to pro brewers that homebrewers don’t hace access to.

Foam like that doesn’t require flaked anything.

It’s a combo of step mashing, very controlled fermentation, dry hopping obviously, and most likely tetra or hexahop.

I can get pretty merengue like foam but not that lasts as long as this. C61 does contain wheat.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

There are a lot of products available to pro brewers that homebrewers don’t hace access to.

Foam like that doesn’t require flaked anything.

It’s a combo of step mashing, very controlled fermentation, dry hopping obviously, and most likely tetra or hexahop.

Macro lager uses products like propylene glycol alginate for head retention.

 

[HopVision]

There are a lot of products available to pro brewers that homebrewers don’t hace access to.

Foam like that doesn’t require flaked anything.

It’s a combo of step mashing, very controlled fermentation, dry hopping obviously, and most likely tetra or hexahop.

I can get pretty merengue like foam but not that lasts as long as this. C61 does contain wheat.

This is very true about pro vs homebrew, I suggest we alter accordingly as we will never be able to recreate it exactly... Just because its not what they are doing, doesn't mean it can't taste and smell as good... Or even better! Nate had to start somewhere after all.

Maybe I should drink some Sierra Nevada Pale ale to get inspired!

 

[stickyfinger]

anyone compare cal ale to 1318? went back to cal ale for fun recently and the hop character seems much more muted. maybe the yeast character of 1318 boosts the perception if hoppiness?

 

[RTE]

I have not gotten that kind of head on any beer without using flaked adjuncts, especially wheat and rye. I'm not sold on them not using them... also, read somewhere a while back about a brewer putting yeast into secondary (no idea what temp) to create haze.

One thing I want to mention being from the West Coast, is that there is a distinct difference in aroma from east to west.. process must be different somehow. But the last batch I was able to sample from Tree House was not as epic as I had remembered. Either the west is catching up, or growing pains in the new brewery... You mention yeast aroma, all I got was hops. BUT I remember that unique yeast aroma you are probably describing!

What did you drink and when was it canned? Besides batch to batch variability the timing and beer itself makes a big difference in terms of how much yeast aroma is present. The best cans have the same aroma as the brewery itself.

I had a Curiosity 63 this weekend which only had 2-row and dextrin. It was great. It was plenty thick. In fact I wouldn't want it any thicker. 16 oz that left me completely bloated. It was also heavily dry hopped. I do wonder how much dextrin malt was used, like maybe 10% or more? The yeast aroma was faint. I find that to be the case with any of the DDH equivalent Treehouse beers.

 

[couchsending]

anyone compare cal ale to 1318? went back to cal ale for fun recently and the hop character seems much more muted. maybe the yeast character of 1318 boosts the perception if hoppiness?

They are very different yeasts. Been making more beers with Cal Ale lately. Beers to submit for competitions cause judges are generally so far behind the curve when it comes to hoppy beers and cal ale beers are what they know.

I do find myself enjoying them as well. It’s definitely a better expression of the pure hop character. 1318 is sweeter regardless of gravity and softer. I do think it amplifies the fruitier aspects of the hops more. Not sure if that’s esters or what. I don’t really use any different process for a cal ale beer just change the yeast up.

Been drinking some Cellarmaker Beers lately that they use 1056 or 001 on and really enjoying them. They call them “hazy” WC style. Not sure what that means exactly. I’ll see if I can find out.

 

[TBryerton]

What did you drink and when was it canned? Besides batch to batch variability the timing and beer itself makes a big difference in terms of how much yeast aroma is present. The best cans have the same aroma as the brewery itself.

I had a Curiosity 63 this weekend which only had 2-row and dextrin. It was great. It was plenty thick. In fact I wouldn't want it any thicker. 16 oz that left me completely bloated. It was also heavily dry hopped. I do wonder how much dextrin malt was used, like maybe 10% or more? The yeast aroma was faint. I find that to be the case with any of the DDH equivalent Treehouse beers.

Which offerings are DDH? I was under the impression all their beers have one DH.

 

[RTE]

Sorry it should be written as "DDH" equivalent as in the beers that are extra hopped versions of some other beer i.e. jjjuliusss, aaalter egooo, super typhoon, doubleganger, etc.

 

[HopVision]

What did you drink and when was it canned? Besides batch to batch variability the timing and beer itself makes a big difference in terms of how much yeast aroma is present. The best cans have the same aroma as the brewery itself.

I had a Curiosity 63 this weekend which only had 2-row and dextrin. It was great. It was plenty thick. In fact I wouldn't want it any thicker. 16 oz that left me completely bloated. It was also heavily dry hopped. I do wonder how much dextrin malt was used, like maybe 10% or more? The yeast aroma was faint. I find that to be the case with any of the DDH equivalent Treehouse beers.

The cans I had were less than a week old. Alter Ego and Julius. Alter Ego was on of my favorites because I always got more of the yeast aroma from that beer. This was some months back though. I just remember the beers from Monson having more magic.

 

[RTE]

The cans I had were less than a week old. Alter Ego and Julius. Alter Ego was on of my favorites because I always got more of the yeast aroma from that beer. This was some months back though. I just remember the beers from Monson having more magic.

Julius is very hit or miss. I have a few mediocre cans right now. I drank a great batch from January that might as well have been JJJuliusss and keeps me going back. I wonder what it is about the process or ingredients that causes the variability. Are the house yeast that unpredictable or maybe biotransformation is unreliable?

 

[HopVision]

Let me be clear, the beers were still very good. Just not anything special. As I was trying to say in a previous post, the beers out west (even the "juicy's") seem to be much more hop forward. But, beers that I have tried on the east coast have a little more going on in the aroma department, which I like. I remember that artisan feel coming from the first can of Tree House I tried. Unique from the crowd. From my experience they seemed to have lost some of this. Although, I am not the best judge to consistency as I am not able to sample it often.

 

[couchsending]

I only get to drink TH a few times a year. Last few year’s I’ve gone once or twice and a couple times a year a good friend will send me 10 or 12 cans. Got to go to Monson a few times and been to the new spot twice I think.

Just got some Spring and C61. To me the aroma is all yeast driven. And I actually don’t really like it. It has this weird bready like ester that I associate with SO4 during fermentation. I definitely don’t get any “honeydew” or “juicyfruit”. Wouldn’t surprise me if the size of the FVs has reeked havoc on the esters their yeast combo creates.

The mouthfeel and intensity of flavor is still amazing but the aroma of all their beers is so similar to me.

Got some C62/63 showing up this week. Interested to see how those are, especially knowing the variable change between the two.

 

[TBryerton]

I only get to drink TH a few times a year. Last few year’s I’ve gone once or twice and a couple times a year a good friend will send me 10 or 12 cans. Got to go to Monson a few times and been to the new spot twice I think.

Just got some Spring and C61. To me the aroma is all yeast driven. And I actually don’t really like it. It has this weird bready like ester that I associate with SO4 during fermentation. I definitely don’t get any “honeydew” or “juicyfruit”. Wouldn’t surprise me if the size of the FVs has reeked havoc on the esters their yeast combo creates.

The mouthfeel and intensity of flavor is still amazing but the aroma of all their beers is so similar to me.

Got some C62/63 showing up this week. Interested to see how those are, especially knowing the variable change between the two.

I live about 3.5 hrs away from TH but I try to keep my fridge filled with them as much as possible. I agree with your assessment - very yeast driven. I had 62 & 63 last night. 62 was the first beer I had from them w/their house yeast where the hops overshadow the yeast. It would've been an outstanding beer if there wasn't so much hop burn.

 

[StinkyBeer]

Isomerisation - Have gravity checked any of those warm stored bottles?

 

[isomerization]

Isomerisation - Have gravity checked any of those warm stored bottles?

Haven’t gravity checked, but have opened to taste. Same apparent level of carbonation. I double checked at the packet I used is indeed WB-06, so not sure what went wrong with the yeast.

 

[mediant]

Haven’t gravity checked, but have opened to taste. Same apparent level of carbonation. I double checked at the packet I used is indeed WB-06, so not sure what went wrong with the yeast.

Not sure if you mentioned it before, but did you cold crash / cold condition the beer before bottling?

 

[isomerization]

Not sure if you mentioned it before, but did you cold crash / cold condition the beer before bottling?

I did not, since they were in 1 gal fermenters with no way to easily control O2 ingress, I just bottled as is.

 

[StinkyBeer]

Very interesting.

 

[stickyfinger]

They are very different yeasts. Been making more beers with Cal Ale lately. Beers to submit for competitions cause judges are generally so far behind the curve when it comes to hoppy beers and cal ale beers are what they know.

I do find myself enjoying them as well. It’s definitely a better expression of the pure hop character. 1318 is sweeter regardless of gravity and softer. I do think it amplifies the fruitier aspects of the hops more. Not sure if that’s esters or what. I don’t really use any different process for a cal ale beer just change the yeast up.

Been drinking some Cellarmaker Beers lately that they use 1056 or 001 on and really enjoying them. They call them “hazy” WC style. Not sure what that means exactly. I’ll see if I can find out.

sorry, i meant that post for the neipa thread. thx for the comments. i should do a cal ale/1318 comparison.

 

[kaz4121]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I followed up the mineral analysis with beverage analytics of Tree House Julius here: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/beverage-analytics-of-tree-house-julius/

Analysis Method Results Units

Color ASBC Beer 10-A 10.8 SRM

pH ASBC Beer 9 4.60 –

Turbidity ASBC Beer 27-B 1821 NTU

Protein Discrete Analyzer 8.1 g/L

ABV ASBC Beer 4 7.10 % v/v

Density ASBC Beer 4 1.01346 g/mL

Specific Gravity ASBC Beer 4 1.01454 –

Apparent Extract ASBC Beer 4 3.72 % w/w

Real Extract ASBC Beer 4 6.18 % w/w

Attenuation ASBC Beer 4 64.7 %

CO2 ASBC Beer 4 4.6 g/L

DO ASBC Beer 4 0.004 mg/L

Bitterness ASBC Beer 23 121 IBU

 

[beervoid]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I followed up the mineral analysis with beverage analytics of Tree House Julius here: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/beverage-analytics-of-tree-house-julius/

Analysis Method Results Units

Color ASBC Beer 10-A 10.8 SRM

pH ASBC Beer 9 4.60 –

Turbidity ASBC Beer 27-B 1821 NTU

Protein Discrete Analyzer 8.1 g/L

ABV ASBC Beer 4 7.10 % v/v

Density ASBC Beer 4 1.01346 g/mL

Specific Gravity ASBC Beer 4 1.01454 –

Apparent Extract ASBC Beer 4 3.72 % w/w

Real Extract ASBC Beer 4 6.18 % w/w

Attenuation ASBC Beer 4 64.7 %

CO2 ASBC Beer 4 4.6 g/L

DO ASBC Beer 4 0.004 mg/L

Bitterness ASBC Beer 23 121 IBU

Awsome work man, the Turbidity being that high is really interesting! Anyone know what might cause that?
Julius is supposed to not have wheat or oats in it so.

 

[kaz4121]

Awsome work man, the Turbidity being that high is really interesting! Anyone know what might cause that?
Julius is supposed to not have wheat or oats in it so.

Based on Maye's research on NEIPA, tubridity was mostly comprised of protein (36%), hop compounds (15%) and polyphenols (3%).

Julius has higher protein than most other beers I found Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPA (0.21 g/fl oz), Widmer Hefeweizen (0.18 g/fl oz), and Guinness Dry Stout (0.12 g/fl oz) - but they could still achieve that through the large grain bill (SN Torpedo is only pale and caramel malts, for example). And Brulosophy showed that NEIPA w/oats was indistinguishable from NEIPA w/o oats to tasters, despite both being hazy. Plus too much protein will drop out of solution and actually lead to a more clear beer. So it's possible there really are no oats/wheat in Julius.

If that's the case, it's the protein from their non adjunct malts + hop compounds binding together.

 

[beervoid]

Based on Maye's research on NEIPA, tubridity was mostly comprised of protein (36%), hop compounds (15%) and polyphenols (3%).

Julius has higher protein than most other beers I found Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPA (0.21 g/fl oz), Widmer Hefeweizen (0.18 g/fl oz), and Guinness Dry Stout (0.12 g/fl oz) - but they could still achieve that through the large grain bill (SN Torpedo is only pale and caramel malts, for example). And Brulosophy showed that NEIPA w/oats was indistinguishable from NEIPA w/o oats to tasters, despite both being hazy. Plus too much protein will drop out of solution and actually lead to a more clear beer. So it's possible there really are no oats/wheat in Julius.

If that's the case, it's the protein from their non adjunct malts + hop compounds binding together.

Yes was just reading through it, basically a really well formed haze from the right stuff..
They never released which NEIPA's they used for the analysis in that study. If they used commercially available ones it doesn't surprise me the turbidity of Julius is much higher.

 

[kaz4121]

Yes was just reading through it, basically a really well formed haze from the right stuff..
They never released which NEIPA's they used for the analysis in that study. If they used commercially available ones it doesn't surprise me the turbidity of Julius is much higher.

Yes, no idea which commercial NEIPAs (or West Coast IPAs) they tested, but still useful information to benchmark Julius against.

 

[beervoid]

Yes, no idea which commercial NEIPAs (or West Coast IPAs) they tested, but still useful information to benchmark Julius against.

They claim to not use wheat or oats. Perhaps Unmalted or Flaked Barley to UP the protein some more.

 

[couchsending]

You don’t need wheat or oats or any high protein adjunct to make hazy beer. There is more than enough protein in American 2 row if that’s your base malt.

 

[kaz4121]

You don’t need wheat or oats or any high protein adjunct to make hazy beer. There is more than enough protein in American 2 row if that’s your base malt.

Exactly.

Tree House Julius = 0.24 g/fl oz
Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPA = 0.21 g/fl oz (pale and caramel malts only) with similiar ABV
Widmer Hefeweizen = 0.18 g/fl oz (pale and wheat) with lower ABV
Guinness Dry Stout = 0.12 g/fl oz (no wheat) with lower ABV

 

[beervoid]

Exactly.

Tree House Julius = 0.24 g/fl oz
Sierra Nevada Torpedo Extra IPA = 0.21 g/fl oz (pale and caramel malts only) with similiar ABV
Widmer Hefeweizen = 0.18 g/fl oz (pale and wheat) with lower ABV
Guinness Dry Stout = 0.12 g/fl oz (no wheat) with lower ABV

From these nrs I can only get that Tree House is the highest.
I have no idea about what difference the 0.03gr/fl oz would make in comparison with Torpedo and if that would point to unmalted adjuncts.

Percentage wise its a difference of 12.5% so it seems quite substantial from this viewpoint.

Someone knows how to do the math on this one?
And if a difference like that is not strange considering the varying amounts of protein in malts.

 

[beervoid]

You don’t need wheat or oats or any high protein adjunct to make hazy beer. There is more than enough protein in American 2 row if that’s your base malt.

Protein content does help with mouthfeel though.

 

[kaz4121]

From these nrs I can only get that Tree House is the highest.
I have no idea about what difference the 0.03gr/fl oz would make in comparison with Torpedo and if that would point to unmalted adjuncts.

Percentage wise its a difference of 12.5% so it seems quite substantial from this viewpoint.

Someone knows how to do the math on this one?
And if a difference like that is not strange considering the varying amounts of protein in malts.

Typo on SN Torpedo, I meant Celebration.

Here is the most comprehensive list I could find, conveniently from SN

https://sierranevada.com/beer-nutrition/

A couple interesting takeaways for me were

Julius - 2.9g (per 12 oz to compare to beers below) / no flaked gains / 7.1%

Kellerweis - 2.7g / 2 Row, Munich, wheat / unfiltered / 4.8%

Celebration - 2.6g / 2 row, caramel / 6.8%

Big Foot - 2.2g / 2 row, caramel / 9.6%

Tropical Torpedo - 2.1g / 2 Row, honey, Munich / 6.7%

Otra Vez - 1.6g / 2 Row, wheat / 4.9%

Kellerweis and Otra Vez are nearly identical ABV and both contain wheat but have much different protein levels. Is this due to wheat % or filtering or both?

Clearly wheat does contribute high protein levels but so does total barley mass - a 6.8% Celebration almost is identical to Kellerweis.

I’m not saying TH doesn’t use high protein malts, I’m just saying it’s possible they don’t.

 

[couchsending]

Protein content does help with mouthfeel though.

Overloading the beer with protein also speeds up the “fall off” and creates the sludge effect. There are other ways through water, pH, mashing regime, carbonation to create the softer, more full mouthfeel and a much more stable final product IMHO.

 

[beervoid]

Overloading the beer with protein also speeds up the “fall off” and creates the sludge effect. There are other ways through water, pH, mashing regime, carbonation to create the softer, more full mouthfeel and a much more stable final product IMHO.

I agree I've had better results on with no to lower flaked adjuncts then higher.

 

[beervoid]

Typo on SN Torpedo, I meant Celebration.

Here is the most comprehensive list I could find, conveniently from SN

https://sierranevada.com/beer-nutrition/

A couple interesting takeaways for me were

Julius - 2.9g (per 12 oz to compare to beers below) / no flaked gains / 7.1%

Kellerweis - 2.7g / 2 Row, Munich, wheat / unfiltered / 4.8%

Celebration - 2.6g / 2 row, caramel / 6.8%

Big Foot - 2.2g / 2 row, caramel / 9.6%

Tropical Torpedo - 2.1g / 2 Row, honey, Munich / 6.7%

Otra Vez - 1.6g / 2 Row, wheat / 4.9%

Kellerweis and Otra Vez are nearly identical ABV and both contain wheat but have much different protein levels. Is this due to wheat % or filtering or both?

Clearly wheat does contribute high protein levels but so does total barley mass - a 6.8% Celebration almost is identical to Kellerweis.

I’m not saying TH doesn’t use high protein malts, I’m just saying it’s possible they don’t.

Based on what do you assume its possible. Julius does have the highest protein content of all the listed beers.

Do you know if 2.9 gr per 12oz is within specs of normal malted barley?
Is the difference of 12.5% high?