Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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StinkyBeer: If you can find a link I would love to see it!

A lot of videos I've seen where yeast is just shooting out is just after dry-hopping the beer during vigorous fermentation - all those hops create millions of nucleation points for the CO2 to just blast off. Curious if what's in the video is because of that.
 
I've had hop volcanoes before and that is fermentation in the video not a result of dry hopping. The most obvious reason being there doesn't seem to be any hop particles. That sludge would be green.
 
Ok so what I don't get is what I've seen with the fermentation I did with the yeast I collected from the growler of Sap.

The last step of the yeast starter was very phenolic. Which is what I would associate with T-58. The beer I produced with what I harvested fermented down to 1.022 I believe. It was a rough clone of Swish but I mashed higher and used malted oats and no wheat, but plenty of sugar). The sample at 1.022 was super spicy, again indicating T-58 was at play. I bumped it up to 74 and roused the yeast with Co2 a few times and it wouldn't budge. Sooo I threw some harvested 1056 I had laying around and it brought it down to 1.015 I think... if there was CBC-1 in there none of that would have happened cause it would have killed all the other yeast and the 1056 wouldn't have worked. It could be that there was no CBC-1 in there because it was a growler??? But theoretically I think that would make less sense.

I'm still if the believe that most of the fermentation is conducted with S-04 maybe a blend of S-04 and WB-06 as they are generally similar primary fermentation temps. There is also a separate smaller batch of the same wort fermented with T-58 (or whatever it is) at higher temps. The two are then blended together to give the beer that added dimension of fruitiness and mouthfeel. Then it is naturally carbonated with CBC-1 or whatever.

Another though is instead of adding sugar with the carbonating yeast they could be adding heavily hopped Speise to the tank. That way they aren't adding even more hops during the natural carbonation stage.

The batch I'm fermenting with the yeast I harvested from an HF growler of S&S9 I pulled the last 1.5 quarts off and froze them with the idea that I would dry hop that batch once and then naturally carbonate it by adding yeast and the remaining Speise that I whirlpooled a ton of galaxy and Moteuka in. From what I've read it adds another layer of dimension to the finished beer and is quite different than dry hopping.

Also BTW Maine Beer Co naturally carbonates all their beers in the bottle. I've never had dinner but from the sounds of it it's a pretty good hoppy beer. Natural carbonation in a Bright tank would be much easier and maybe quicker as well?
 
In my (literature) research on killer yeast strains, it appears that the RNA virus responsible for producing the toxin that kills other yeast can be cured by a couple different methods. It's possible that the TH CBC-1 like isolate could have been cured. I have legit CBC-1 and the TH isolate, if I have time I will try some co-culture experiments to see what happens. I agree though with what your saying, but maybe it's not a 100% kill efficiency over one generation?
 
I won't be able to brew this for a couple weeks, but strategy will be as follows:

Brew 13 gallons using recipe very similar to Braufessor NE IPA with Citra/Amarillo/Columbus (2:2:1).

Split into 3 fermenters, 6 gallons getting 1318 and 3.5 gallons, 2 times, getting S-04 and T-58. Ferment at 68F (I always let it free rise after day 2) for 1318 and S-04 and 77F for T-58 (StinkyBeer style). Will keep track of gravities and pH. Active dry hopping will be done in all batches at appropriate ratios.

1318 batch will be kegged like normal, with 2nd dry hop in the keg. 2.5 gallon of each S-04 and T-58 beer will be combined in a corny and WB-06 plus the keg hop and a spunding valve will be added (at 72F), not sure how much WB-06 to add yet. I'm hoping enough sugar will be left to get me fully carbed. I cut my dip tubes short anyways, but if yeast/true is an issue, I can jump to a fresh keg. I'm not going to mess with the CBC-1 for now.

If anyone has a critique or suggestions, I'd love to hear them.
 
Is it still possible that cbc-1 is similar to F2, I mean everything else is fermentis here so...
 
melville said:
Is it still possible that cbc-1 is similar to F2, I mean everything else is fermentis here so...
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That would be my suspicion too, but I don't know how "new" F-2 is in general. Like maybe it's new to us common folk, but pro brewers have had access for years?

I can't find it available stateside, but if anyone has some and wants to send it to me, I will test it.
 
Looks like F-2 was launched in 2012 and I think you can get it through BSG??? Maybe a homebrew supply store can order it?

Fermentis doesn't mention anything about it being "killer"...

Sounds like you can achieve fermentation in a week (especially if there is already carbonation due to some spunding) and roundness of flavor in 2-3 weeks... who else thinks TH beers taste better with time? Nate even says he thinks so...
 
one of my takeaways from that video is that there isn't hop material in the blow off. So they either haven't added hops to the fermenter at that point, or there is a pre-filter for the blow off
 
For me there are 2 main options. Both require pitching a ratio of S-04, WB-06, T-58 simultaneously and pitching and fermenting warm (personally I go 25 and don't get fusels). T-58 really amps the hops IMO.

Option 1:

The cbc-1 strain is pitched only when FG is reached and with simple sugars to create very exact carb vols that are repeatable. They possibly lower the FV temp by 30% or so to help halt fermentation at desired gravity (WB-06 can really munch).


Option 2:

CBC-1 is the first strain to be pitched and it grows the most and consumes all the simple sugars then goes to sleep. The other 3 are then pitched and fermented warm. Warm ferment, lack of simple sugars and other factors like lack of o2 and under pitching would really make these yeasts work hard and throw some serious esters. Cap the final few points to carb naturally and finish off with head pressure if needed.
 
Option 1 seems to make a lot of sense to me now that I think about commercial scale process. It sounded like in the video they make two 30 bbl batches on brewday. These probably go to the 2 beers that will be released together in the future? They can't keep up with production anyways, so splitting sort off to smaller fermenters might be a waste.

The use of CBC-1 could potentially be genius too. I need to read more about the toxin killer yeast make, but if it's just static and not cidal, then metabolism is basically halted rather than the yeast lysing. Basically is stabilizing the final product, which when canned would allow the other yeasts to come back to life and munch sugar.
 
screenshot

(if you can't click through, the above is Nate on twitter saying they don't ferment under pressure/use a spunding valve.)
If they're making bubbles it's coming after (primary) fermentation.
 
Option 2 makes zero sense to me... using a killer totally neutral ale yeast to consumer a large percentage of the sugars and then use the flavor impacting and traditional yeast to only ferment a small percentage of the leftover sugar? Those flavors would be totally whack plus if it secretes that toxic protein and it's the predominant yeast there's gonna be a lot of that protein in there... then you dump small proportions of normal sugar eating yeast cause there isn't as much food left? Seems like a recipe for horrible beer.

I'm confused why people think the naturally carbonated/conditioned option isn't a possibility. It's done by so many very highly regarded breweries and even with hoppy beers. It helps to totally eliminate any possible leftover o2, rounds flavor profiles, all beneficial things.

@stinkybeer you're in the UK?
 
couchsending said:
Option 2 makes zero sense to me... using a killer totally neutral ale yeast to consumer a large percentage of the sugars and then use the flavor impacting and traditional yeast to only ferment a small percentage of the leftover sugar? Those flavors would be totally whack plus if it secretes that toxic protein and it's the predominant yeast there's gonna be a lot of that protein in there... then you dump small proportions of normal sugar eating yeast cause there isn't as much food left? Seems like a recipe for horrible beer.

I'm confused why people think the naturally carbonated/conditioned option isn't a possibility. It's done by so many very highly regarded breweries and even with hoppy beers. It helps to totally eliminate any possible leftover o2, rounds flavor profiles, all beneficial things.

@stinkybeer you're in the UK?
Click to expand...

I think it's 100% why they're using the CBC-1/F2.
 
If they arent spunding at the end of fermentation, or while dry hopping, that means all carbonation happens because of CBC-1/F2. Potential production issue there in that the data sheet says 2 weeks to referment, though they could be topping off with gas. Still a long time for a place clearly struggling to meet demand.
 
Not really... it's all planned out... Heady is 24-28 days between brew day and canning for instance... doubt it takes more than 7-10 days with a little carbonation already in the beer and a little head pressure.
 
I brewed today - pitching the main 3 yeasts on this thread based on Strasser's recommendations and a schedule I came up with trying to maximize ester production.

10 gallon batch
day 1 - 1/2 packet wb-06 at 74* (pitching at 85* and letting temp fall to 74)
+ 24 hours - whole packet s04 and 1/5 packet t58, turn temp down to 60* and ferment for 3 days.
raise temp for d-rest and gravity check at day 5 or 6 depending on activity.

If you guys are interested I can post back with results. I made 2 mini batches yesterday, 1L each to ferment t58 and wb06 for ester tasting. t58 was spicy and not very interesting. wb06 tasted like apricot fruit juice with a big bubblegum aroma. When I mixed the 2 50/50 the 58 overpowered the 06 very easily and they almost canceled each other's flavors.

@Isomerization - do you have a blog or website I can credit you back to for all this amazing DNA work you did?
 
@Marshallb

You're going to nail it.

I Have a feeling that we may hit a wall post fermentation. My hunch suggests we will finish dry and be presented with a new situation where we need to sweeten and where the finishing yeast comes in to the picture.
 
couchsending said:
Also BTW Maine Beer Co naturally carbonates all their beers in the bottle. I've never had dinner but from the sounds of it it's a pretty good hoppy beer. Natural carbonation in a Bright tank would be much easier and maybe quicker as well?
Click to expand...

A total side note, Dinner is highly overrated. It's actually more of West Coast IPA than anything that Tree House puts out. It's still a good beer, but a NEIPA it is not.

Ruckusz28 said:
The whole "biotransformation" thing isn't something I buy in to. However, that's off-topic. Back to yeast.
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We'll have to trade beers some day then! That oat IPA I made had an ungodly amount of Chinook in it and it's so lemony fresh that you can barely taste the pine.

BTW, this is basically just me wanting to try your beer haha. The blog looks great
 
marshallb said:
I brewed today - pitching the main 3 yeasts on this thread based on Strasser's recommendations and a schedule I came up with trying to maximize ester production.

10 gallon batch
day 1 - 1/2 packet wb-06 at 74* (pitching at 85* and letting temp fall to 74)
+ 24 hours - whole packet s04 and 1/5 packet t58, turn temp down to 60* and ferment for 3 days.
raise temp for d-rest and gravity check at day 5 or 6 depending on activity.

If you guys are interested I can post back with results. I made 2 mini batches yesterday, 1L each to ferment t58 and wb06 for ester tasting. t58 was spicy and not very interesting. wb06 tasted like apricot fruit juice with a big bubblegum aroma. When I mixed the 2 50/50 the 58 overpowered the 06 very easily and they almost canceled each other's flavors.

@Isomerization - do you have a blog or website I can credit you back to for all this amazing DNA work you did?
Click to expand...

This is the place for results and the real credit will go to whomever unlocks the magic pitch ratio, ferment temp process!! But I certainly appreciate the sentiment.

TheHairyHop said:
I recently got huge mouthfeel using 1318 and oats. Really on par with Green, which is pale enough to maybe use oats
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That's kind of my feeling as well and why I'm using 1318 as my "control" yeast. I love the idea of cloning the TH process, but if I can make superior beer (my standards) in an easier fashion, then...
 
Love to hear more thoughts on the biotransformation subject... I've heard from a few reputable people who say it's pretty much been debunked... something about how it's capable with Brett but over a long period of time but not something regular brewing yeast is capable of doing during primary fermentation...

@MarshallB are you concerned with the creation of more Diacetyl dropping those ferm temps like that?

I think the T-58 specifically needs to be fermented warm. It is crazy spicy at ale fermenting temps, even at only 25% of the total yeast. There are very few esters I would associate with a Treehouse beer when it's fermented in the temps I fermented it at. I got spice/clove and nothing resembling tropical.
 
I would second the warm fermentation temps throughout. Knock on wood, but I have never had a yeast throw fusels on me and routinely have vigorous fermentations in the high 70s with my IPAs. I think the amount of hops can hide a lot of flaws and the goal here is to pull out the esters anyways right?
 
marshallb said:
Honestly there was too much yeast in suspension for me to tell. Nothing that jumped out at me though and I'm always looking for that Treehouse softness.
Click to expand...

What if...the softness is purely a function of naturally conditioning. For advocates of the process a common descriptor is softness/smoothness/creaminess. There's nothing particularly special described as it pertains to mouthfeel for S-04, T-58, and WB-06 (in fact there's nothing really special about any of these yeast — all have superior alternatives when it comes to desirable esters).

Having combed through Nate's twitter and interviews numerous times, there's also nothing (revealed) about their process or ingredients that hints at where the mouthfeel comes from. A recent interview has him saying that several beers have grists of 95% pale malt. Wheat has been used in one beer. No flaked anything. Most beers do not have oats, and where it did have oats (malted? GNO?) the percentage was under 5%. That leaves carapils (an ingredient they do use (in addition to dextrose)), mash techniques, yeast, and conditioning. We now know the yeasts, can assume how they condition, and maybe take a stab at mash temps higher than 150F (he also advocates heavy kettle-side hop additions, but that doesn't help here..)

Of the yeasts:

S-04: Workhorse, (very)light fruit esters, high flocculation.
WB-06: Fruity esters, haze, high attenuation.
T-58: Spice. Used for conditioning.
CBC-1/F2: Used for conditioning.
 
"Tree House Julius a India Pale Ale (IPA) beer by Tree House Brewing ... A soft, pillowy mouthfeel and rounded bitterness"

That's from their description — all adjectives that could describe a naturally carbonated beer.
Fermentis on F2 yeast: "Contribution in roundness and maturation aromas"
 
So...exactly how does one add yeast and sugar without exposing beer to O2? Put sugar and yeast in keg, purge. Close transfer beer into that keg?
 
Been following this thread for awhile and chiming in to maybe provide some useful information about fermentation temps and timelines we know they're using at the brewery. There's been several pictures taken of their temperature controller at the brewery that all recently filled fermenters (the dates were written on the panel) were set at target and actual of 66f. Beers that were around the 1-2 week range were set to 60f, and beers around week 3 were at 32f, I would imagine to cold crash before being transferred to brite tank. They currently have all the temps on their controller taped over at the brewery, but I've seen multiple pictures taken from multiple different times that confirms the above temps and timeline. I spent a lot of time trying to nail their process with harvested yeast from their cans which of course was unsuccessful. Makes sense now that we know they are using multiple strains. My attempts were definitely t58 dominant in character, but I'm excited to give this another go with the information I've learned here. Of course I have no idea what their timeline or ratios of pitching the yeast is but maybe this information will help someone to theorize what they may be doing, and I'd be happy to test it out on mini test batches.
 
I've worked with a lot of different yeast over the last couple of years. I worry about diacetyl, as every brewer should, but I feel like if you know what triggers create it - what to look and taste for - how to fix it, then there should be little worry about it carrying through to the final beer. I rarely (if ever) ferment any yeast to a single temperature anyway.
I don't like stressing yeast with low pitch volumes because that always leads to diacetyl unless there's another yeast batting cleanup. My typical fermentation schedule for something like 007 would be: pitch at 85*, let cool to 68, then back up to 72 to finish. Where something like Conan I would pitch at 80 and leave it for 24 hours, in the middle of the growth phase reduce the temperature to 62 for a few days, then back up to 72 to finish. Most of my Bavarian or Belgians are around 75*. I do this to maximize ester production of the esters I like to taste. There are many ways to stress yeast, but a healthy pitch rate is very important to me.
I've also done work on water chemistry and now have my own water testing kit. The beer I brewed yesterday I built the water from RO because my biggest concern was adding sufficient Sulfate and Chloride while keeping the Total Hardness as near zero as possible. I ended up with about 20ppm of both Magnesium and Calcium. To me, adding a ton of Gypsum and CaCL2 is counter productive as those compounds raise the total hardness to a point that it mitigates the softness we're after. So this beer fermenting is 30% malted wheat and very soft water.

@melville where did you see 95% pale malt? None of his beers are simple enough to carry a 95% pale malt bill that I've tasted. Possibly something Saison?
 
@marshallb:

How to Homebrew an IPA That's Worth Drinking

"In a big, hops-focused IPA, the barley should only provide fermentable sugar, not aroma or flavor. "Pale malt is all you need," says Brynildson, referring to the relatively muted malted barley brewers commonly use as the base malt of their recipes. Likewise, Nate Lanier, head brewer at Tree House Brewing says of his IPAs, "we use just pale malt as 95 percent of our grist in several beers." Brynildson, however, likes even less specialty grains in his IPAs, "Very small additions of cara-malt are okay, but keep it under 2.5 percent of the grist bill.""
 
savylemons said:
Been following this thread for awhile and chiming in to maybe provide some useful information about fermentation temps and timelines we know they're using at the brewery. There's been several pictures taken of their temperature controller at the brewery that all recently filled fermenters (the dates were written on the panel) were set at target and actual of 66f. Beers that were around the 1-2 week range were set to 60f, and beers around week 3 were at 32f, I would imagine to cold crash before being transferred to brite tank. They currently have all the temps on their controller taped over at the brewery, but I've seen multiple pictures taken from multiple different times that confirms the above temps and timeline.
Click to expand...

No idea which beers were in those fermenters right? Could easily be something dark, or which fermentor a they were.

Again I'll ask... Why do they have those small fermenters at the front near where you stand around to wait for growlers? They're so much considerably smaller than the others. I haven't spent enough time in a brewery to know sizes of FVs by sight. I always guess and I'm always wrong when I ask a brewer. But if they're doing 30 BBL brews twice a day those three up front seem small for that. Based on the blog and photos it seems like the others are 30 and 60 BBL, so those in the front might be 15. Again goes back to my blending thoughts. Split some of the beer into a separate smaller fermentor and ferment at alternate temps to promote deaireable fruit esters and then blend back in either in Bright or back into larger FV. As far as T-58 goes I don't know if you get less spice at 75 or not. Again I ask could it be something slightly different than T-58? Remember how Ringwood and Conan look the same but Conan is some sort of mutant that produces more peach? WLP566 is from DuPont (which is what T-58 is supposedly) and according to description supposedly produces more fruit and less spice?

In regards to mouthfeel.. just like HF all the TH hoppy beers have relatively high FGs. 1.014 or 1.015 right? Anyone measure eureka? (Walden is 1.014 I think??) Mashing high seems logical. Anyone have any FGs on Good morning or the none lactose dark beers? Everett from HF is 1.031. Also according to Fermentis T-58 supposedly leaves more leftover sugars (most likely maltioriose) which could aid in adding thickness and "softness". Last two batches i've been going down the same as Marshall and trying to get a lot of my S04 from Epsom salt and even some Chloride from regular old NaCl. I think CA has been between 50-70 for the two.
 
The three FV's up front look like 10bbl. Wait 3 FV's... Three yeasts, maybe... but no still doesn't make sense because the proportions wouldnt, couldn't be equal. Most likely these came over from their smaller brewhouse I'm guessing.
 
@couchsending I used table salt yesterday too. I drink plenty of bottle conditioned beers that don't have a soft mouthfeel. Treehouse has perfected their chemistry.
 
Could someone tell me what the opaque tank is between the brewhouse and the FVs? It's in the video and in a bunch of pics. What purpose does that serve?
 
couchsending said:
No idea which beers were in those fermenters right? Could easily be something dark, or which fermentor a they were.

Again I'll ask... Why do they have those small fermenters at the front near where you stand around to wait for growlers? They're so much considerably smaller than the others. I haven't spent enough time in a brewery to know sizes of FVs by sight. I always guess and I'm always wrong when I ask a brewer. But if they're doing 30 BBL brews twice a day those three up front seem small for that. Based on the blog and photos it seems like the others are 30 and 60 BBL, so those in the front might be 15. Again goes back to my blending thoughts. Split some of the beer into a separate smaller fermentor and ferment at alternate temps to promote deaireable fruit esters and then blend back in either in Bright or back into larger FV. As far as T-58 goes I don't know if you get less spice at 75 or not. Again I ask could it be something slightly different than T-58? Remember how Ringwood and Conan look the same but Conan is some sort of mutant that produces more peach? WLP566 is from DuPont (which is what T-58 is supposedly) and according to description supposedly produces more fruit and less spice?

In regards to mouthfeel.. just like HF all the TH hoppy beers have relatively high FGs. 1.014 or 1.015 right? Anyone measure eureka? (Walden is 1.014 I think??) Mashing high seems logical. Anyone have any FGs on Good morning or the none lactose dark beers? Everett from HF is 1.031. Also according to Fermentis T-58 supposedly leaves more leftover sugars (most likely maltioriose) which could aid in adding thickness and "softness". Last two batches i've been going down the same as Marshall and trying to get a lot of my S04 from Epsom salt and even some Chloride from regular old NaCl. I think CA has been between 50-70 for the two.
Click to expand...

Probably need to try the TH isolates SxS with fresh Fermentis yeast, I can make up some larger batches of each isolate to share if anyone is interested.
 
This is all great stuff! Love the yeast research. Science! A few things I believe and have heard to achieve softer beers.

1. Low salt additions. I'll add enough sulfate to get me to around 20 ppm and CaCl to get to about 50-70. I believe grain will add some sulfate, someone please correct me if that's wrong.
2. High percentage of flaked oats. I feel it really helps give a fuller mouthfeel. But it looks like Nate doesn't use it so there's other ways to still get the mouthfeel without adding flaked grains. I do think the protein aids in keeping aroma around.
3. Higher FGs help provide a residual sweetness which leads to improved mouthfeel but not a cloying taste.
4. I don't think anyone has touched on it yet but carbonation levels might play a key. I like to carb my brews to 2.0-2.1. I did hear from a friend that most of the northeast breweries carb their beer at 2.8-2.9 but that's because they are using N.E. ball faucets (I know Treehouse has them if you've been there). Those faucets lose some carbonation as it pours I guess.
 

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