Is this IPA too dark?

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deeve007

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Hey guys!

I've brewed an IPA, almost ready to bottle but wondering if it looks a little darker than expected, and if so why that might be (image below).

The grains:
5kg Pilsen
400g Viking Caramel 400
600g Viking Caramel 100

It has a slighty toasted flavour to it.

I have yet to add the gelatin, but that will just clear it a little not lighten it, correct?

And second question: Hoppiness is a little low (IBU seems fine), I think I added in my whirlpool hops a little early, so am thinking of dry hopping to add a little. Not part of initial recipe, but would it help add a little hopiness without any issues likely?

ipa-dark.jpg
 
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I’ve seen darker, but have no experience with those particular malts. Personally I think that’s a great beer color. I chose to not dry hop my recent ipa and regret it. It’s just missing that something extra.
 
Yes I think it's dark for an IPA, unless brewing a black IPA . However if that's what you wanted then that's all that matters. It's your IPA not anyone else's. What is your IBU? Not dry hopping an IPA is like not putting the cherry on top.
 
I like the colour too, just wasn't expecting it to be so dark. Flavour seems nice apart from missing the hoppiness mentioned...
 
Yes I think it's dark for an IPA . However if that's what you wanted then that's all that matters. It's your IPA not anyone else's. What is your IBU? Not dry hopping an IPA is like not putting the cherry on top.
But I didn't really aim for this, it's a recipe that I wasn't expecting to be so dark so wondering if it's something I did wrong, or to be expected from those grains?
 
That is a lot of crystal for an IPA. I can't speak for Viking crystal malts, but I know their "2 row" is much darker than other brands, so that might be true for the crystals as well. But if you like a maltier IPA, it's all up to your personal preference. Also all IPAs should be dryhopped
 
That is a lot of crystal for an IPA. I can't speak for Viking crystal malts, but I know their "2 row" is much darker than other brands, so that might be true for the crystals as well.
So that might be it.

Nothing to do with what I like, this is a pre-packaged recipe so all I expected was an IPA, not something this dark without being aware of why, and if it was something I did wrong.
 
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The grains:
5kg Pilsen
400g Viking Caramel 400
600g Viking Caramel 100

In units that my brain understands (oz and Lovibond -vs- grams and EBC) that would be:
  • 14 oz Caramel 150L
  • 21 oz Caramel 40L
Wow...that is a lot of dark Caramel malt for an IPA. In years past I would use 16 oz of Crystal 60L in a 5 gal batch of Pale Ale or IPA and I have moved toward using less Caramel and shifting to more 20L and 40L. Are you sure that is what the base recipe called for? I would not think even a malty English IPA would use that much Caramel. The last time I used Crystal 120L (in a Porter) I felt that it added too much raisin/dark fruit flavors.
 
Are you sure that is what the base recipe called for?
Came in a kit from a supply store here, but seems it must have been a red IPA rather than a standard IPA from the above comments... all good, fine with it being that so long as it comes from the grains and not from me making some error, so all good.

Thanks for the help everyone!
 
Yes.
For an India PALE Ale.
Looks like a hoppy Irish Red, maybe.
ANd don't get me started on Black IPAs - while I don't love the term Cascadian Ale, at least whoever came up with that realized how dumb it is to call something a Black India Pale ale. That's like saying "we have raw beef cooked well-done!" Putting two mutually exclusive terms in one name just ignores the fact that words are supposed to have meanings.

It is a beautiful color for a beer, no doubt, but an India PALE Ale, it is not.
Sorry to burst any bubbles out there with a reality check on the meaning of words.
 
Looks great, and about what should be expected with that grain bill. 20 years ago I’d say it was too dark for the style, but nowadays.....nah..... Hell, anything from clear to opaque is all within the realm of “acceptable”. The “pale” in India Pale Ale is a thing of yesteryears as far as I can see.
As for the “toasted” notes your tasting, chances are they will fade in the final product judging from your malts.
 
20 years ago I’d say it was too dark for the style, but nowadays.....nah..... Hell, anything from clear to opaque is all within the realm of “acceptable”. The “pale” in India Pale Ale is a thing of yesteryears as far as I can see.
NOt to be argumentative, but I'll have to disagree with you there.
"Pale" still means pale.
Dark red is not pale.
Black is not pale.
Brown is not pale.
Words mean things. To say that anything on the color spectrum can fall under a "pale" ale is just ... incorrect.
 
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Lol. don’t worry about my feelings, I can take it. I fully agree it’s wrong, but unfortunately, not incorrect....... ‘‘tis the time we live”.
You make a good point, but just saying something is so, doesn't make it so.
I can call myself an 8-foot giant of a man, but my 5'10", 170 lb stature would disagree.
And I would be incorrect.

But you did make me chuckle, so points for that.
 
Could be an amber (red) ale if IBUs less than 40. Gonna take alot of hops to get over 40. I bet it is not adequately hopped. Hard to overcome that level of sweetness. Can we get the hop schedule?
 
Hop schedule:
40g at start of boil (60 minute boil)
10g 45 minutes
50g whirlpool

I've added 40g in addition to the above recipe additions, after a week in the fermenter. I also bottled a couple of litres so I can compare to how it turns out before & after the dry hopping.
 
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The IPA part is about the bitterness and the hoppiness. I would not call it a "hoppy red ale" if it is on the scale of an IPA as far as bitterness.

I am also not one who is a stickler for correctness. I have not problem with calling it a Red IPA or Black IPA. But then again pale?????

Any ideas of changing the P in IPA to some word other than pale to fit dark, bitter, hoppy ales? India Pungent Ale doesn't sound right! ;)
 
The IPA part is about the bitterness and the hoppiness. I would not call it a "hoppy red ale" if it is on the scale of an IPA as far as bitterness.

I am also not one who is a stickler for correctness. I have not problem with calling it a Red IPA or Black IPA. But then again pale?????

Any ideas of changing the P in IPA to some word other than pale to fit dark, bitter, hoppy ales? India Pungent Ale doesn't sound right! ;)

Not sure what the hell India has to do with anything either for that matter. Americans are idiots. Myself included.
 
Not sure what the hell India has to do with anything either for that matter. Americans are idiots. Myself included.

It was a style that started out when India was a colony of England. They used a lot of hops as preservatives so that the beer would last the trip on sailing ships.
 
The IPA part is about the bitterness and the hoppiness. I would not call it a "hoppy red ale" if it is on the scale of an IPA as far as bitterness.

I am also not one who is a stickler for correctness. I have not problem with calling it a Red IPA or Black IPA. But then again pale?????

Any ideas of changing the P in IPA to some word other than pale to fit dark, bitter, hoppy ales? India Pungent Ale doesn't sound right! ;)
I like India Pungent Ale!

But seriously, what about India Red Ale? Similar enough to India Pale Ale that you'll get the idea that it's probably high ABV and very hoppy, but also an accurate term. If you recall, Dogfish Head had (still has?) an India Brown Ale. They did the right thing.

I get what you're saying about saying Red IPA vs. Red India Pale Ale, but since IPA is an initialism, and not a word unto itself, you can't escape the presence of the word "pale" right there in the name.
 
If you think its got a good bracing bitterness, appropriate for an IPA, it could be entered in a BJCP competition as a Red IPA. Take a look at the BJCP style guidelines here https://bjcp.org/docs/2015_Guidelines_Beer.pdf

Its under Style 21B Specialty IPA. Here's the summary:

Specialty IPA: Red IPA
Overall Impression: Hoppy, bitter, and moderately strong like an American IPA, but with some caramel, toffee, and/or dark fruit malt character. Retaining the dryish finish and lean body that makes IPAs so drinkable, a Red IPA is a little more flavorful and malty than an American IPA without being sweet or heavy.
 
It was a style that started out when India was a colony of England. They used a lot of hops as preservatives so that the beer would last the trip on sailing ships.

When I first started brewing in the 90(s) I believed that. Now, beer historians have pretty much debunked that as a marketing ploy.

For example: Posted: 2 August 2018. Original content [emoji767] Craig Hill 2018.:

“Supposedly strong, bitter ales of the type that would be called "India Pale Ale" were not new in the late eighteenth and nineteenth century Britain. And, what's more, according to the data provided especially by Ron Pattinson and Mitch Steele, the characteristics (OG, FG, Apparent Attenuation, ABV and Est IBU) of nineteenth century IPAs exhibit high variability and fall within the range of "Pale ales" or similar (such as October beer, Stock beer, Bitter Ale, Mild Ale, and Strong Ale) including those that were brewed for local consumption rather than export and were not called India Pale Ale. India Pale Ale did not represent a well-defined "style", let alone a beer designed specifically to survive the journey to India and then to appeal to British palates. Which isn't to deny that "India Pale Ale" existed or that, in general, IPAs tended to be stronger and hoppier/bitter (relatively high ABVs and IBUs) than other contemporary non-Indian pale ales as Pete Brown has argued, it's just that the India(n) prefix was more likely to have been about marketing in an increasingly competitive environment than the beer itself*.

It's not completely surprising therefore that, as the Foods of England Project and Martyn Cornell's research has shown, the first recorded use of the term "India Pale Ale" was not in the manifests of East India Company clippers nor in the Calcutta Gazette as we might expect, but in a newspaper advertisement in the Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser for 27 August 1829.

*[Apologies for the footnote] Although there is absolutely no evidence for this that I can find, it's possible that the "India" in "IPA" might have come from the late Georgian and Victorian British obsession with India and things Raj-ian, from architecture to literature, textiles and wallpaper and to food and drink. Otherwise, why not just "Export" Pale Ale or "British Imperial" Pale Ale. At the same time as the English apparently discovered IPA, they also discovered curry: the first curry recipe was published in 1747; the first advertisement for curry powder appeared in 1784 and in 1810 Sake Dean Mahomed opened the first Indian restaurant in Britain. So it's tempting to suggest that this was the beginning of that great British culinary tradition, beer and curry... but that's probably a bit too much to digest. Nevertheless, "India" might well have been prefixed to "Pale Ale" just because exotic India was fashionable.

Or maybe it has something to do with advantageous taxing of goods being exported to the Jewel in the Imperial Crown...? Might be worth checking out]”
 
Hop schedule:
40g at start of boil (60 minute boil)
10g 45 minutes
50g whirlpool

I've added 40g in addition to the above recipe additions, after a week in the fermenter. I also bottled a couple of litres so I can compare to how it turns out before & after the dry hopping.

If AA (alpha acids) of the 60 and 45 minute hops are greater than 7%, then IBUs are greater than 40 and you have a Red IPA. If less than 7%, you have an Amber Ale of the Red variety. The other hops do not affect the IBUs of the beer.
 
I like to try to shoot for 165*F +/-5*F for a 20 min whirlpool as a compromise then quickly cool to pitch temp.
 
I like to try to shoot for 165*F +/-5*F for a 20 min whirlpool as a compromise then quickly cool to pitch temp.

If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 mph...

Er... I mean...

If my theory is correct, with a warm whirlpool like that, you get the same IBUs as if you'd boiled for about half the time. So, you'll still get IBUs as if you'd boiled somewhere around 5-10 minutes for a 20-minute whirlpool.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7891/45991029004_df99d89bc1_o.png
 
It is clear in most everything published, as well as beer lore, that bitterness extraction (of acids) requires the turbulence that is part and parcel of the boiling operation. Once the boil ceases, so does bitterness extraction. I would be happy to take credit for this brilliant finding, but unfortunately, the internet has ruined any opportunity I might have had to take credit for and to patent it.
 
If AA (alpha acids) of the 60 and 45 minute hops are greater than 7%, then IBUs are greater than 40 and you have a Red IPA. If less than 7%, you have an Amber Ale of the Red variety. The other hops do not affect the IBUs of the beer.
Centennial hops, AA 9.5-11.5%
The extra hops I used for dry hopping were 20g more of this, plus 20g Mosaic AA 10.8%.

From sampling I think IBU is fine, but I did expect/want a little more hoppy aroma, hence thought why not try dry hopping. I've bottled 2 litres before adding just to compare before/after.

I am thinking I should have waited just a little before adding the whirlpool hops, rather than right at boil end, but something I can play with across brews.
 
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