I've found recently in the last say 5 batches as I hone my technique I've had better efficiency with longer mash times. I just wondered being a new AG brewer is or are there things that longer mash times may impart that I don't know. All the beers I've made with the longer times have been crowd pleasers and very tasty so it make me thing that mashing in longer has worked but is there something I could be missing. Any advice would be great. I've also started Dbl sparging and I use beersmith for my calculations.
Is there an issue with mashing for 75-90 min
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No reason against a longer mash. Eventually the mash will start to sour, but at the times you mentioned it will be fine. However, there's also not much reason to mash longer either. Once all the starches have been converted to sugar, your mash is done. You can do a starch conversion test with some iodine to determine if your mash is done.
homebrewdr
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Nothing wrong with a long mash. Some brewers mash overnight. The only issue is if you are particular with your temperatures...is to be able to maintain your temp over that time. Some brewers are afraid of a "stuck mash" which is when the mash gets too "soggy or mushy" and then liquid doesn't drain properly down the false bottom. For dry beers, letting the temp drop wouldn't be an issue. I'm rather new to AG, but I commonly mash for 2 hours to increase efficiency.
When they say long mashes can sour your beer, I've never heard of that being done by accident. Those who want to sour their beer with a certain method let their mash collection sit for 3+ days, because there is a lot of lactobacillis in the mash.
Cheers
When they say long mashes can sour your beer, I've never heard of that being done by accident. Those who want to sour their beer with a certain method let their mash collection sit for 3+ days, because there is a lot of lactobacillis in the mash.
Cheers
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Many, many brewers utilize a 90 minute mash. The guys from 'down under' who are generally recognized as the developers (and current studious tweakers) of BIAB seem to be very committed to longer mash times. One of their points is that even those who mash for 60 minutes often have grain in contact with water longer than 60 due to the time it takes to vorlauf and drain the MT, add the sparge water, vorlauf and drain that, and then mash out. Of course ther are also many who say that a complete mash can take place in a much shorter time, but I have never heard anyone say that a longer mash is harmful in any way whatsoever. But I have yet to hear or read everything there is on the subject.
I had a happy accident with this in my hybrid lagers. The light colored ones anyway. I do pb/pm biab & the beers were coming out a bit hazy. I'd start the mash @ 153F & it would cool a few degrees over the one hour mash. This happened 2-3 times. Then on a later batch, I drank to tall boys & most of a 5th of vodka during the boil, but after the bittering addition. About an hour & 45 minutes total into the boil, I woke up & decided to soldier on. The beer came out quite a bit clearer. My notes are a bit jumbled at this point however. I started to think maybe I didn't use enough base malt to get good conversion. The boil seemed to precipitate some of the starches from the increased time. This got me to thinking about a 90 minute mash then use the usual 60 minute boil to get them clearer?
lazarwolf
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Scientifically it's not necessary. But being is not just science. If longer mash is producing great beer sick with it. I mash for about 45. I almost always slowly fly... works for me
I've sort of wondered about that advice myself (I BIAB) and the reasoning behind it, but back when I 3V'd I'm reasonably certain you do the mash-out first, then vorlauf, sparge, etc. Although I realize the mash-out is not going to be an absolute switch (conversion on / conversion off) I do think it would be different than simply mashing for 90 minutes then pulling the bag. Guess I'll have to ask on the forum unless Conestoga or MadScientist see this...
Sorry for the slightly OT
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Merlin - please update this thread if you gain a better/different understanding. Or as you say, maybe Mad or Con will chime in.
Union - what kind of vodka was it
Union - what kind of vodka was it
I think this is key, as 1) you'll see a lot of reading out there, anecdotal or otherwise, about longer mash times = a more fermentable wort / higher attenuation / a dry finish and 2) I've searched around quite a bit to find good, solid experimental evidence but it seems every study I've seen either doesn't mention that they're maintaining temperature, or mentions that the smaller vessels necessary to do a "controlled" experiment used had led to temperature loss over the course of the mash.
Likewise, if you don't have a method of maintaining temperature (ie, recirculation), I'd pay attention to how the temp changes in different spots in your mash over the course of the mash. As you go longer, you can only lose more temp. It may be negligible depending on your equipment, or if not, it may lead to lower FGs than you're expecting.
olotti
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I use a 10 gal cooler and maybe I'm just lucky but it's rock solid at maintaining temps over a 90 min mash, I rarley if ever lose even a degree. I have a digital thermometer with a long probe so that temp is taken from within the mash.
Merlin - please update this thread if you gain a better/different understanding. Or as you say, maybe Mad or Con will chime in.
Union - what kind of vodka was it
I think it was Smurfin' Off...the beer was two Labatt's 24 ouncers.
This raises an interesting question for me: Once starch conversion is complete, is my mash done? I ask because I had a mash that was over 90% base malt that showed by an iodine test that it was converted within 25 minutes at 152F. I left it for the full 60 minutes, but was there any point in waiting?
GrogNerd
mean old man
from what I understand, it depends a lot on the crush
coarser crushes need more time for the water to convert the starch in the bigger chunks
coarser crushes need more time for the water to convert the starch in the bigger chunks
ds0oc1
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I need a finer crush - my efficiency has been terrible since starting AG BIAB (around 55%).
I have a brew planned this weekend which the grain bill has been adjusted to match my efficiency. I think I'll try the longer 90 minute mash and see what I get. Its a hoppy pale ale so if I come in over 6.5% I'll just call it an IPA!
lazarwolf
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so a little background, i am new to HBT, but I've been home brewing for 25 years. Since the dark ages of Home brew. In fact, there was a time before the amazing growth of this hobby that sourcing materials was a major concern. We had to find grains, we sometimes even had to malt grains, we often had to roast grains. We used to make worksheets that we'd calculate out by hand to determine if the mash had enough conversion potential, what our water needed to be, and what our IBUs (called HBUs at the time) would be. And we always had to step mash. Im no scientist, but I have been exposed to this for a long time. So here is what I know, with out getting to technical regarding diastatic (diastatic) potential, enzymatic conversion,, the benefits and problems of 2 row vrs 6 row ( that used to be a big argument in the HB community), and or the definition of well (or 100% modified barley).
The mash is for more than just starch to sugar conversion. There are other flavinoids, good and bad that can come out in the mash. When you mash correctly Alpha and Beta Amylase convert starches into sugars. But they aren't like individual crystals of sugar in solution floating in your wort. They are literally little nets of hydroscopic one and two molecule long chains that are still connected to other more complicated molecule chains, like water. The water is, however also connected to other things as well. Basically they are gelatinous.. Technically, once the starch is converted, you can stop mashing . But as others have pointed out your efficiency will struggle. You want these gelatinous sugars to go into solution and be available for the yeast when you ferment. That means a slightly longer mash. The reason BIAB brewers need to mash for so long is because they don't sparge, or they don't sparge long enough. The theory is therefore, give the sugars and the water time to come fully into solution. (soluble) and release from the other things they may be bound to. There are in fact more chemical processes occurring than just A&B conversion of starch to sugar.. So even if your starch conversion is done, you may suffer low efficiency if you don't mash long enough. But generally, unless you are using a high level of low modified grains, there is no reason to exceed about an hour. unless you are brewing in a bag. Then you probably want to mash a little longer.
The mash is for more than just starch to sugar conversion. There are other flavinoids, good and bad that can come out in the mash. When you mash correctly Alpha and Beta Amylase convert starches into sugars. But they aren't like individual crystals of sugar in solution floating in your wort. They are literally little nets of hydroscopic one and two molecule long chains that are still connected to other more complicated molecule chains, like water. The water is, however also connected to other things as well. Basically they are gelatinous.. Technically, once the starch is converted, you can stop mashing . But as others have pointed out your efficiency will struggle. You want these gelatinous sugars to go into solution and be available for the yeast when you ferment. That means a slightly longer mash. The reason BIAB brewers need to mash for so long is because they don't sparge, or they don't sparge long enough. The theory is therefore, give the sugars and the water time to come fully into solution. (soluble) and release from the other things they may be bound to. There are in fact more chemical processes occurring than just A&B conversion of starch to sugar.. So even if your starch conversion is done, you may suffer low efficiency if you don't mash long enough. But generally, unless you are using a high level of low modified grains, there is no reason to exceed about an hour. unless you are brewing in a bag. Then you probably want to mash a little longer.
olotti
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I need a finer crush - my efficiency has been terrible since starting AG BIAB (around 55%).
I have a brew planned this weekend which and the grain bill has been adjusted to match my mash. I think I'll try a longer 90 minute mash and see what I get. Its a hoppy pale ale so if I come in over 6.5% I'll just call it an IPA!
If u think ur crush from ur lhbs is coarse try the 90 min mash as it gives extra time to extract the sugars or have ur lhbs dbl mill the grain next time and go back to a 60 min and see if that works. I'm lucky my lhbs has their mill dialed in and the crush has always been good.
lazarwolf
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Oh I should also add, that you should never be afraid to add some 6 row, especially if you are doing a 60 minute boil. That can help with conversion. There are some great things you can read about mashing, and malt. Understand the malt... understand the mash. The late great Mankind (a kc legendary home brewer) taught me that) We are all to caught up in the recipe, and the efficiency. If your gravity is off... ad some DME. In the old days, we had to do this all the time. So much of the malt was... well it was only partially modified crap. but damn did it taste good.
Magnus314
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No problem, as long as you watch your FG. I get VERY low FG (also called high attenuation) when I mash a long time.
Like a 1.050 beer will end at 1.005 or lower and be VERY dry and 6+% alcohol.
Not terrible for light lagers or blond ale type of beers, but really not what you want for an IPA (or most other beers, really).
Just watch your FG. If it's low, it's probably because of the longer mash.
If not, you're golden!
Like a 1.050 beer will end at 1.005 or lower and be VERY dry and 6+% alcohol.
Not terrible for light lagers or blond ale type of beers, but really not what you want for an IPA (or most other beers, really).
Just watch your FG. If it's low, it's probably because of the longer mash.
If not, you're golden!
olotti
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So far all IPAs and apa's I've made using either 04,05 or wlp001 have finished around the 1.010 mark which unintentionally led me to liking beers in this range. It's boosted the abv but now I plan for them to hit this mark and have corrected in beersmith as such. I now know why the FG dropped from the early beers I made that had higher FG, I just started brewing in May 14 and wondered why my FG dropped but then I was doing 60 min mash with a mash out and single sparse. Now I've been doing a 75-90 min mash with dbl sparge. This also prob explains why the last zd clone I did with 04 I had to use a blowoff tube on whereas the initial batch didn't. It's all starting to make sense and I shoot for mash temp of 152 usually on my IPAs and apa's.
I agree with the don't happen by accident part , but I also got good sour in 18 hours by keeping my mash temps between 120 and 125f for that 18 ours
lazarwolf
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Magnus314 makes a great point, there is almost too much focus on efficiency of mash in our hobby right now. Mankind used to say something to me when i would ask about effeciency which we called conversion and attenuation factors, "Not ever beer is supposed to be a highly alcoholic, or super dry beer" When you get really good, and really know your equipment, you'll be able to customize your mash to the beer you are brewing.
GrogNerd
mean old man
exactly
just like fermentation: there's more occurring than just conversion of sugar to alcohol
ds0oc1
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The mill at my LHBS is self-serve and is hand driven. I'd rather just buy the extra grain then double crush 10# of grain.
There is another store which I visit occasionally - I'll have them double crush the next time I'm there.
Some sites like Morebeer automatically crush grains, so I crush'em again in my Barley Crusher on brew day. I think it at least freshens them up a bit.
New2Brewing3
Active Member
I tried to read through this and didn't see this long of time. I am fairly new to all grain. I have an igloo 10gallon mash tun. My kid has a ball game this morning and I was thinking of starting mash right before we leave and hen going on to brew when I get home. If I do this it could be mashing for 3 hours or so. I am going to be brewing a simple IPA. Will 3 hours +/- be too long of mash?
BowAholic
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I brew because I enjoy it so more time spent mashing doesn't bother me. I recently thought about trying adding a little time by doing a 20 minute Protein Rest @122*, then a 30 minute Beta Sacch Rest @149*, then a 30 minute Alpha Rest @158*, followed by my usual 10 minute Mash Out @170*.
I passed out once & boiled for an hour & 45 minutes, but never mashed a few hours. The beer did come out a hair clearer though. A longer mash, in some instances, would give better conversion seems to me. Like my hybrid lagers. Well modified grains can still leave starch haze when I mash @ 153F. I'm thinking adding a bit of 6-row with the 2-row to get more enzyme power?
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