Is it ok to use a bucket for secondary fermentation? (with poll)

[jasonlee247]

ok, so i'm new at this and would like to know your thoughts in using a bucket for secondary fermentation. Any pro's or cons are very welcome here.
Thanx,
Jason

 

[kpr121]

As long as you arent leaving it in the bucket for a long time (like a year) I dont think there is any problem with it. Food grade is definitely recommended, but some people use Homer buckets (I do) which have had some arguments in terms of food grade or not.

 

[BendBrewer]

Most buckets are 6.5 gallons and it is a good idea to have limited empty head space in a 'secondary' so most people use a 5 gallon carboy. Oxygen is your enemy at this point and there isn't a lot of Co2 being produced at that point to insure displacing all the oxygen if there is a lot of empty space.

 

[D_Struct]

First, are you talking about secondary fermenation or just to use as a secondary? There's a difference.

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter either way, but, one has to consider headspace in fermenting buckets, as opposed to the headspace in typical 5 gallon carboys used for secondaries.

The more available headspace, the harder it will be to purge of oxygen by the release of CO2 during continued fermentation.

 

[kpr121]

First, are you talking about secondary fermenation or just to use as a secondary? There's a difference.

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter either way, but, one has to consider headspace in fermenting buckets, as opposed to the headspace in typical 5 gallon carboys used for secondaries.

The more available headspace, the harder it will be to purge of oxygen by the release of CO2 during continued fermentation.

JW, as I am curious: What is the difference between secondary fermentation and plain old secondary?

 

[Homercidal]

I put yes, but with the other guys, you want as little headspace as possible. I'd try and use a 5G bucket instead of the larger primary buckets. There may be some residual CO2 in solution that comes out when you transfer, so you should hopefully get a nice blanket of gas on the beer.

 

[BendBrewer]

JW, as I am curious: What is the difference between secondary fermentation and plain old secondary?

He is referring to the debate over what Secondary Fermentation really means.

What a lot of people call 'secondary' is really just a conditioning tank as fermentation has completed.

A true Secondary is when you rack the beer before fermentation is complete but the bulk of activity has died down. Hence 'Secondary Fermentation'.

 

[D_Struct]

JW, as I am curious: What is the difference between secondary fermentation and plain old secondary?

A secondary is merely a 2nd container in which secondary fermentation COULD take place, but is not needed.

Secondary fermentation is basically what happens after the yeast have consumed the vast majority of the fermentable sugars, such as reducing levels of acetaldehyde and other byproducts that produce off flavors.

Secondary fermentation can actually occur in your primary. Calling it secondary fermentation ONLY when it's in a secondary fermenter is a misnomer, but a common misconception.

 

[kpr121]

He is referring to the debate over what Secondary Fermentation really means.

What a lot of people call 'secondary' is really just a conditioning tank as fermentation has completed.

A true Secondary is when you rack the beer before fermentation is complete but the bulk of activity has died down. Hence 'Secondary Fermentation'.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense. So if the beer hasnt hit FG yet, and you transfer, that is "secondary fermentation', and the beer will continue to expel CO2 which means you could possibly use a larger bucket without oxygen problems. If you transfer after FG, while the yeast may still be doing some beneficial cleaning up and you will get some other conditioning benefits, there will be little to no CO2 production, and head space becomes an issue. Got it. :rockin: I love this forum. Learn something new everyday.

 

[BendBrewer]

Kind of.

The extra space needed in Primary is to allow the krauesen to do it's thing without blowing out the top. After initial fermentation has settled down, this extra space is not needed and undesired. Regardless of fermentation being complete or not, most people rack to a smaller vessel if they rack at all.

 

[Hockeyhunter99]

with the limited head space in a secondary (clarifier, conditioner, bright tank, etc.) comment, CO2 is heavier than O2 and even if O2 is not completely purged from the tank, the CO2 would form an air barrier right over the liquid, correct? so why does headspace matter? more curious on my part

 

[skidkid267]

Not trying to hijack but this question seems to fit in. If you were to rack to a secondary/conditioning carboy, could you give the headspace a shot of CO2 to purge any Oxygen and then not have to worry about oxidation in the carboy? I am transferring an IPA tonight for dry-hopping purposes and might have to give this a try if it sounds good.

 

[BendBrewer]

Not trying to hijack but this question seems to fit in. If you were to rack to a secondary/conditioning carboy, could you give the headspace a shot of CO2 to purge any Oxygen and then not have to worry about oxidation in the carboy? I am transferring an IPA tonight for dry-hopping purposes and might have to give this a try if it sounds good.

Sure, or you could get a 5 gallon vessel and not worry about it. In all actuality, most home brewers don't let their beer sit for long enough to really make a difference.

 

[D_Struct]

Not trying to hijack but this question seems to fit in. If you were to rack to a secondary/conditioning carboy, could you give the headspace a shot of CO2 to purge any Oxygen and then not have to worry about oxidation in the carboy? I am transferring an IPA tonight for dry-hopping purposes and might have to give this a try if it sounds good.

I've heard of people doing this, but I've got no quantifiable data to back up its effectiveness or validity.

I'm sure there's countless people here that could give real world insight into the practice.

 

[D_Struct]

with the limited head space in a secondary (clarifier, conditioner, bright tank, etc.) comment, CO2 is heavier than O2 and even if O2 is not completely purged from the tank, the CO2 would form an air barrier right over the liquid, correct? so why does headspace matter? more curious on my part

The barrier created by the CO2 is not technically air tight. It's gas-permeable, but there IS a layer of protection. Think of it more like a condom. Not quite 100%. lol There's still chance for exposure.

But like BendBrewer said, it takes time to really have that much of an effect, and most don't allow it to sit long enough to occur.

 

[skidkid267]

7 days with the dry hops and then into a keg or bottles. Thanks guys.

 

[jasonlee247]

awsome info and posts guys! Sounds like there is still alot of debate about this going around.

With that said what i'm wondering now is what would be the benefit from racking to a secondary bucket/carboy before primary fermentation is complete vs. Just using a secondary as a clarifier?

Sounds to me that this would infact create a thicker Co2 'barrier' when racked to secondary a little earlier, but i'm lost on what other benefits this would have.

Keep those replies coming!

 

[BendBrewer]

With that said what i'm wondering now is what would be the benefit from racking to a secondary bucket/carboy before primary fermentation is complete vs. Just using a secondary as a clarifier?

Some people worry about off flavors from the dead yeast and want to get their beer off of it as soon as they can. But the majority of folks don't worry about it much if at all.

So some people are a little anal and rack it off the cake a bit early and let it finish in a secondary.

Folks like me only worry about it a little bit and rack to a 'secondary' as a means to clarify and condition the beer off of the yeast cake.

Others don't give a rat's ass at all and leave it in primary for the entire time of a month or more.

 

[jasonlee247]

i gotcha. I think i'm with you man, just wanna clarify my beer.

 

[Revvy]

i gotcha. I think i'm with you man, just wanna clarify my beer.

Then leave your beer in primary for a month....

This is my yeastcake for my Sri Lankin Stout that sat in primary for 5 weeks. Notice how tight the yeast cake is? None of that got racked over to my bottling bucket. And the beer is extremely clear.

That little bit of beer to the right is all of the 5 gallons that DIDN'T get vaccumed off the surface of the tight trub. When I put 5 gallons in my fermenter, I tend to get 5 gallons into bottles. The cake itself is like cement, it's about an inch thick and very, very dense, you can't just tilt your bucket and have it fall out. I had to use water pressure to get it to come out.

Ths is the last little bit of the same beer in the bottling bucket, this is the only sediment that made it though and that was done on purpose, when I rack I always make sure to rub the autosiphon across the bottom of the primary to make sure there's plenty of yeast in suspension to carb the beer, but my bottles are all crystal clear and have little sediment in them.

Half the time I forget to use moss, and you can't tell the difference in clarity.

Another thing is to leave your beer in the fridge for at least a week. The longer you chill the beer in the fridge, the tighter the yeast cake. I had a beer in the back of my fridge for 3 months, that I could completely upend and no yeast came out. Longer in the cold the tighter the yeast cake becomes. Even just chilling for a week (besides getting rid of chill haze) will go to great lengths to allow you to leave the yeast behind, but with only a minimum amount of beer.

The only filtering I've ever done has been through my kidneys.

Besides, fermenting the beer is just a part of what the yeast do. If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

This is the latest recommendation, it is the same one many of us have been giving for several years on here.

Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:
John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:
These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

All my beers sit a minimum of 1 month in the primary. And I recently bottled a beer that sat in primary for 5.5 months with no ill effects.....

You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.

 

[jasonlee247]

wow, great info man. To the point, and goes down smooth. I'll try that. +reps.

 

[92greenyj]

if its a relativley short secondary absolutely. I have 1 glass carboy that only gets used for long secondaries (imperials, barleywines, etc) past that I use plastic buckets with spigots for my primaries and secondaries. most of my beers spend 1 week in primary and 1 week in secondary

 

[jasonlee247]

cool. Thanx for the info. I think i'll stick with primary for everything but the ones i want exxxtra clear. I dunno if i'm just seeing things, but i started using irish moss for my latest beers and that alone seems to help a bit. I gather that the few extra weeks in primary will help even more, so i'll plan the strong beers and ones i want super clear for my single carboy. Damn things slick tho. phew..........i can see how those can be dangerous.