Is Extract not as good as BIAB or all grain?

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Dalymiddleboro

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I see often that new brewers transition from extract kits, to all grain or BIAB. What's the reasoning for this, using LME isn't best practice? I'm just curious. I plan on really getting into home brewing and hopefully following online recipes instead of just kits.

Honestly, one day I'd love to write my own recipes. Any advice or tips? Thanks guys!
 
I found that I like the beer a lot better doing BIAB and it only takes 30 minutes longer than extract.

Sure you need a larger pot and possibly a ladder and pulley system, but it's well worth it. The beer is a lot cheaper too.
 
The grain is about 1/3 the cost at my LHBS than the extract for starters.

All-grain brewing (which BIAB is a type of) allows for far more control over flavor-changing variables than extract does, and makes better tasting beer IMO. Extract beer always has an ethereal, hard to name taste that can only be described as "that extract beer flavor". You can also get fresher ingredients which helps. And it really forces you to understand the whole brewing process from barley/wheat field to mug better.
 
It's less about quality, than about recipe control. Extract, even with steeping grains, can limit your grain pallette to the point that it can limit your creativity. People make great extract beers all the time, it just doesn't fit my brewing style at all.

And cost, extract is expensive.
 
The grain is about 1/3 the cost at my LHBS than the extract for starters.

All-grain brewing (which BIAB is a type of) allows for far more control over flavor-changing variables than extract does, and makes better tasting beer IMO. Extract beer always has an ethereal, hard to name taste that can only be described as "that extract beer flavor". You can also get fresher ingredients which helps. And it really forces you to understand the whole brewing process from barley/wheat field to mug better.

Agreed the control for me is the #1 reason I went straight into all grain. There is also a big cost benefit over extract and I hear a lot of people not getting their predicted FGs with the "set" sugar profile of extracts. Also, for me it just seems more like you are brewing your own beer rather than mixing a bunch of packets together. That being said, its not liek you cant make good beer with extracts
 
I switched to all grain (BIAB) 25 batches ago some time last year. My beer has improved dramatically! No more "extract" taste. I wish I had moved to all grain in 2006 when I was doing extract batches.
 
For me it is about cost primarily as for whatever reason at the new place I'm at extract is insanely expensive, I'd be spending $40CAD/batch in extract alone, not even including hops or yeast, so I spent a bit more on a second pot (split 2x16L stovetop brewing is how I go). Partial mashing was nice but now that I've gone all-grain I do enjoy the extra control and flexibility I get.
 
"Good" is kinda relative. Many possibly most beer styles you will make great beers with extract that are on par with all grain. All grain allows you to fine tune recipe flavors in many ways like using US, German, or Belgian pilsner malts instead of just a blanket pilsner extract.

Some downsides to extract are: Cost, potentially limiting variety of ingredients, 1.020 stuck ferments from bad extract, Some people perceive an "extract twang".

The obvious upside of extract is time and simplicity. But BIAB is not far off.

Extract vs all grain is basically boxed brownie mix vs brownies from scratch. I have had some wonderful duncan hines brownies but the best are always made from scratch.
 
I enjoy the cost savings as well but when you figure in the cost of a AG or BIAB rig it may not add up to what some people expect.

The biggest thing for me personally is the ability to dial recipes in. With extract your stuck with their ratio's, fermentability, etc... AG you can mash at higher or lower temps to dry out the beer or add some residual sweetness, you can play with percentages and even try some mashing techniques. I enjoy those challenges/aspects of brewing.

That being said Ive made some extract brews I really enjoyed as well and I could understand the time savings as a big plus for a lot of brewers.
 
Great beers can be made with extract if you use fresh extract. There have been award winning brews made with extract.The often mentioned extract twang is not an issue with very fresh extract. However, there are limitations of what can be done with extract. All grain gives you much more control and allows making recipes that just cannot be done with extract. With all grain you also have control over things like mash temp. On the other hand there is more opportunities to mess up using all grain. Things like crush, missing mash temps, water chemistry etc. But done right and it is not an issue.

Cost is another factor. It definitely is cheaper to do all grain.

Do what works best for you. It is your brew and your process.
 
Just an fyi; the extract twang leaves over time. The extract brews need to age longer to get rid of that flavor. In some styles it blends well...others not so much.
 
I enjoy the cost savings as well but when you figure in the cost of a AG or BIAB rig it may not add up to what some people expect.

Where is the "cost" involved in BIAB over extract brewing? The bag is like $30, which is amortized after two batches. Grain is cheap enough compared to extract that you could easily just brew higher gravity (typically lower efficiency) and dilute with water while brewing on the stovetop like many extract brewers do and still come out ahead.

That said, to me LME quality is good enough/different enough from brewing AG that I consider it to just be a different tool entirely. That, and I'm able to do a 1hr brew day with extract when I would otherwise have gaps in my pipeline.

EDIT: also, to the OP - you should read this Brulosphy post about the differences they got with MO: http://brulosophy.com/2014/07/21/extract-vs-all-grain-exbeeriment-results/
 
I moved from extract to all-grain for a few reasons.

1) Extract twang and I always ended up with a weird mouth feel from LME.
2) Control - I love being able to control everything: grain crush, mash temperatures, mashing random stuff other than grain, etc.
3) I find it more fun. It's the difference between cooking a meal from a can to cooking a meal from scratch with super fresh ingredients.
4) $$
 
I got into AG because I love brewing and wanted to get more in depth, including water chemistry. I really enjoyed it, but had to quit because of a back problem. The longer brew day was more than my back could stand, and it completely went out. Went back to extract brewing. Still love it - it's all good.

When figuring cost savings, be sure to factor in propane cost if you will use it - it can really cut into the savings.
 
Where is the "cost" involved in BIAB over extract brewing? The bag is like $30, which is amortized after two batches. Grain is cheap enough compared to extract that you could easily just brew higher gravity (typically lower efficiency) and dilute with water while brewing on the stovetop like many extract brewers do and still come out ahead.

It is still some "costs" over just extract. Others need to buy a new large kettle to accommodate the BIAB. Maybe a few other things you would want to have on hand doing AG or BIAB that you wouldn't worry so much about when just doing extract.
 
It is still some "costs" over just extract. Others need to buy a new large kettle to accommodate the BIAB. Maybe a few other things you would want to have on hand doing AG or BIAB that you wouldn't worry so much about when just doing extract.

Kettle and other equipment are short term costs that hopefully you make back.

As for propane, that is a factor, but propane is so cheap (at least around me) that the 1.5-1.75x increase doesn't feel like a factor. I say feel, because I don't feel like doing math.
 
BIAB is all grain brewing . It's a one vessel system as opposed to using a more traditional two or three vessel brewing system.

Echoing what everyone else has said, the two main reasons to move to AG are control and cost.

As far as control goes, the down side of more control is the potential for making more mistakes.

As costs go, this weekend I'm making 8 gallons of beer for $45. When I was extract brewing, I was spending about $48 for 5 gallons.. And I'm going to trim more off those costs off my brews later this year when I finish getting set up for bulk grain and hop purchases.

On the other hand, equipment costs are always greater than ingredient costs. The more complicated a system you want, the more expensive it is going to be. Going to BIAB probably means a buying a bag and probably a bigger BK than you have now. Do you want a valve on it? Do you want to mount a thermometer? Are you going to switch to full boils at the same time and does that mean getting a propane burner or making a heat stick?
 
I may not have a refined sense of taste. I have never tasted "extract twang" in my extracts. In fact I would rate a couple of my extract brews as some of my best. 4 years and 77 batches in.

I too started all grain to have more control over my beers and to save money. I have done a couple extract brews the last 2 winters when it was too cold (for me) to brew outside.

I don't think I could distinguish the extract brew if I brewed the same beer, extract and all grain, and tasted them side by side.
 
Cost is not a very important issue for me when it comes to the choice of brewing to do.

It's all about the fun I get from the process. For me that means having control over the entire process. (Granted I don't grow hops, culture brewer's yeast or malt and farm my own grains). That control can really only be gotten from all-grain brewing. More variables to control also means more room for error too.

Making the sweet-wort is dependent on a whole host of variables including some that are not applicable to extract brewing.

Water chemistry and pH adjustments, different grains not available as an equivalent extract, freshness of the ingredients, mash time, step mashing, decoctions, sparging methods to use, are some some of these added variables all-grain brewing has to offer.

The brewer can tailor the mash profile to meet fermentability requirements suited to any planned beer. That is not possible with extract brewing.

All of these extra issues require a plan, sometimes purchase of gear, DIY solutions, recipe modification, studying up on different processes etc.

For me those extra steps and planning are hugely enjoyable. Thus all-grain is better as I get more fun out of it.

Others will view these things as tiresome, or needing too much in the way of work/time/planning/skill. Extract is therefore better.

No wrong approach. Neither is inherrently better. It's each to their own as it should be for any hobby.

The goal should always be having fun making delicious beer/cider/mead etc. to share and enjoy (responsibly).:D
 
Drinking a Heady Topper as I type - I liked my last couple of extract brews better than this. As well as Zombie Dust, Pliny, Grapefruit Sculpin or most any craft brews I've had in the last couple weeks. I did have a can of Slapshot Brewings Citra Madness last week that tasted just like my Citra Bomb homebrew... good beer is all that matters!
 
I have only done one extract batch (my first beer) and due to being a noob it tasted like crap and I biffed it. No fault of the extract.

In the last year I have started doing mash pH control and water adjustments. My beers have improved accordingly. A benefit that I see of extract is that you don't have to worry about that stuff.

I haven't actually had an extract beer before (apart from my failure) but I don't see any reason why it would not produce beers as good as all grain assuming you use good extract, steeping grains, hops and good yeast. I assume it's not some mystical process in making extract - the manufacturers are probably better at doing good mashs than some home brewers doing all grain (my assumption).

On one of Jamil's shows one of the guys brought in some homebrew and they all drank it and said it was a great beer. The catch was that it was made with pre-hopped LME and revealed after they drank it. Jamil and the guys weren't overly surprised that a good beer was made with extract.

Anyway - that's enough rambling from someone who knows bugger all about extract...
 
I feel like in some chapter of "Principles of Brewing Science," a book recommended in the BJCP, there is a reference to an experiment done between malt and extract and the malt outperformed the extract in terms of hop utilization and possibly another area. Don't have it with me ATM to back that up though.

EDIT: Found a brief reference to what I was alluding to http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue1.2/lodahl.html

Extract can potentially have less FAN than fresh malt
 
What are some styles where the extract flavor blends well?

Sweeter beers. Hoppy IPAs mask it out. Stouts and heavy brown ales as well. Just my opinion. I've done a LOT of extract.

I noticed it more with beers around 4%ABV. Some of those even not so much. Freshness makes an impact also as others have stated.

Time heals about everything besides oxygenation.
 
I would argue that "high class extract beers" ie, fresh malts, fresh hops, fresh additives, quality yeast, and made with best practices ect... can be as good as all grain beers.

Now if we are talking the kits with dextrose and that cheap yeast, no question all grain is much, much better.
 
As others have said, it is possible to make excellent beers with extract, indeed it is probably a good deal easier to do well with extract than with all grain, if your procedures is good. Sanitation, pitch rate, and temperature control count for a lot more than whether you are using extract or mashing your own malt.

However, there are some limits to the control you can have over the process with extract. In extract brewing, you have to work with the mashing practices of the manufacturers of the ME, which generally are going to be be as generic as possible. The mineral content, the mash body, the color depth, etc. will be entirely standardized, rather than designed for the specific beer you are brewing. So, with extract brewing there are limits to the amount of control you have over the process. This was a more serious issue in the past, when ingredients were often sub-par compared to today, but it is always going to be a factor in extract brewing.

Also, while the equipment cost for AG is greater than for extract - only a little more for BIAB, but there's still some added cost - the cost per batch is less because the price of malt is anywhere from half to a third of that of the equivalent in malt extract, and drops further if you buy your base malts in bulk. This does have to be balanced by the tendency to push your equipment purchases further once you start in with all-grain - after all, you want to do as much to improve your beer as possible, and it is harder to rationalize shortcuts when you are going to more work on a batch - though in many cases, the additional investments (larger BK, water filter, wort chiller, temperature-controlled fermentation chamber, better cleaning and sanitizing solutions, stir plate and Erlenmeyer flasks for yeast starters, kegerator and kegs, conical fermenters, etc.) would be just as much of a benefit in extract brewing if not more so.

Pretty much the only expenses that apply to mashing but not extract are the lauter tun/mash bag, water treatment, and a grain mill. Water treatment chemicals are quite cheap - at most you need only a few grams in any batch. Perhaps $20 in chemical salts will be enough to make 100 batches or more. While a malt mill may cost anywhere from $20 to $500, they can last for years - and this is one area where paying a little more is definitely worth the trouble. A two-roller mill costing $200 is a sound investment for an AG brewer. As for the lauter tun, well, that's a choice - a mash bag is cheap, but a cooler or kettle with a false bottom will last longer.

Finally, there is the opportunity cost. Even with BIAB, all-grain brewing takes more time and more effort. Only you can decide if that is worth it to you.

Having gotten into AG fairly quickly myself, I would say that you would be better off focusing on improving your general processes first. I would recommend starting with some books - the more you know ahead of time, the better off you will be. Next comes brewing software - BeerSmith is only $28 and cheap at twice the price, while many other options are free. Get those before your next batch. Similarly, a wort chiller is not optional equipment if you are serious about brewing - I suggest getting a plate chiller if you can afford it, though an immersion chiller is more than adequate. Make sure you have quality sanitation chemicals - I personally recommend PBW for cleaning and StarSan for sanitizing, though you'll want to mix things up from time to time to avoid any resistant strains. If you don't already have a brewing kettle capable of full boils, get one; even if you don't end up using it in your AG brewing later, a 5 gallon or larger boiler is worth having now. The next thing I would do is improve your fermentation temperature control; a used refrigerator and a thermostat is not that expensive, though space may be a consideration. Finally, I would get a stir plate and flasks and learn how to prepare a yeast starter to get a pitch rate suited for the batch size and gravity your brewing. Only once you have all those in place, and have worked out the kinks in your extract setup, should you start looking towards all-grain. Trust me, you'll want all of those things once you start in on AG anyway, so it's better to have them nailed down first, and in any case, they will do more for the quality of your beer than jumping to AG prematurely will.
 
Ive only done 1 extract batch and that was because we were trying to see if we could make our quick golden sour from just using extract. I have always brewed AG.

That being said, theres nothing wrong with extract. Ive had extract batches that were just as good as many AG beers. The biggest difference is you cant control certain factors with pure extract(Mash temp, etc), and there isn't as much variety with extract as there is with other methods.
 
Schol-R-Lea made many good points, but I don't agree that a full boil is important with extract brewing. A partial boil (2.5 gallons post boil) and late extract addition (about half or less of the extract at flameout) can give the same benefits as a full boil. In addition, this allows chilling the wort in an ice bath in the sink, eliminating the need for a wort chiller, or possibly two wort chillers - many brewers use a second chiller for the last 10 - 15 degrees of cooling to pre-chill the cooling water in an ice bath.

I understand this is a hotly contested issue. And I acknowledge that the partial boil and late extract addition would not work for a really high IBU beer due to the solubility limit. You can still brew up to about 50 IBU's, which is as bitter as I care to brew.
 
I like all grain for the control over the process that it gives you. You can tweak everything from recipe to mash temp to pH.

With that said, there is nothing wrong with extract. In fact, I brew extract at least a few times a year for competitions to show that, done well, they are every bit as good as all grain. I had a DIPA finish 4th BOS at a comp with about 200 entries and recently had an extract IPA I brewed take the people's choice for best beer in our club only competition. Funny thing is, I talked to the judge that judged my DIPA in the big comp about it. When I told him it was extract he said that that must have been what that twang was he was picking up. He scored it a 45 and never mentioned the twang, in the score sheet or talking to me, until I mentioned it was extract. Just goes to show the stigma that some people have with it.
 
It depends on the brewer, not so much the process. Extract is just another ingredient. It gives a good base profile to work with. You then can tweak the profile with steeping grains/partial mash, hop schedule, yeast and fermentation temp.

There are enough variables in the brew process to learn that starting with extract at least eliminates a little bit for a new brewer.

Both processes can make great beer.
 
It depends on the brewer, not so much the process. Extract is just another ingredient. It gives a good base profile to work with. You then can tweak the profile with steeping grains/partial mash, hop schedule, yeast and fermentation temp.

There are enough variables in the brew process to learn that starting with extract at least eliminates a little bit for a new brewer.

Both processes can make great beer.

What he said.

Get all your variables down, fermentation temp, sanitation, bottling, yeast pitching, hop schedule. And once your feel comfy with those bump up and go all grain
 
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