I've been brewing for about a year and keep having the same problem. When I sample what I'm bottling, it has great flavor and aroma. After its bottle conditioned for a few weeks, it tastes muddled and seems to have lost its hoppy bite. The beer tastes better the longer it sits, but I never get the hops back. What am I doing wrong?
IPA different after bottling
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Limbrizik
Well-Known Member
Oxidation during bottling.
Minimize splashing the finished beer when racking to bottling bucket/bottling. Hop flavors are difficult to preserve when bottling.
Minimize splashing the finished beer when racking to bottling bucket/bottling. Hop flavors are difficult to preserve when bottling.
I use a siphon. I don't really remember sloshing the beer in the bucket, but I'll pay attention to it next time. Could it be the bottles aren't full enough? I fill them with the wand until there's foam coming out the top, but most of the neck on the bottle is empty.
tiredofbuyingbeer
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Oxidation is possible, but is it the most likely culprit? Oxidation is unmistakable: a wet cardboard or sherry taste.
I've had IPAs that tasted bad green, shortly after carbonating, but improved a great deal as they sat in the closet or in the fridge. Leave them at room temperature for another week or so, then put a bottle in the fridge and let it sit there for a week before trying. As trub and haze material settle in the bottom of the beer, it will get clearer, and I usually notice that the hop flavor gets brighter as well.
I've had IPAs that tasted bad green, shortly after carbonating, but improved a great deal as they sat in the closet or in the fridge. Leave them at room temperature for another week or so, then put a bottle in the fridge and let it sit there for a week before trying. As trub and haze material settle in the bottom of the beer, it will get clearer, and I usually notice that the hop flavor gets brighter as well.
No cardboard taste. The best way to describe is that everything seems "muted".
HopWolf
Well-Known Member
I was actually thinking the same thing as the OP, the last few batches of IPA or DIPA I've brewed have tasted good but I'm missing the "smack you in the face" hop aroma. I only bottle at this point and I'm insanely careful about sloshing or exposing my beer to the air, everything stays covered while racking to secondary or bottling bucket.
I do brew all grain kits from a few different vendors, mill my grains and typically add an ounce or two of hops to the late addition/flameout/whirlpool hop schedule from the kit and anywhere from 1-3 additional ounces to the dry hop schedule. I use a large hop spider in my boil kettle and use the little hop bags for the dry hopping and never more than 1 1/2 oz of hops in the bag, all the hops I use are are pellets kept in the freezer till needed. Any ideas, suggestions
I do brew all grain kits from a few different vendors, mill my grains and typically add an ounce or two of hops to the late addition/flameout/whirlpool hop schedule from the kit and anywhere from 1-3 additional ounces to the dry hop schedule. I use a large hop spider in my boil kettle and use the little hop bags for the dry hopping and never more than 1 1/2 oz of hops in the bag, all the hops I use are are pellets kept in the freezer till needed. Any ideas, suggestions
I recently kegged an IPA with the same problem. I started to research and realized I am still oxidizing my beer even though I'm not getting the full wet cardboard taste. I purge kegs, siphon carefully, and still get this issue. The loss of aroma and flavor happen within a month. the beer still tastes good, but it more of a mellow pale ale now. It made me realize oxidation can be present at different levels.
Going forward, I will be fermenting in kegs and doing a closed loop transfer to prevent oxygen from contacting the final product. I'll be interested to compare the shelf life using this process.
Going forward, I will be fermenting in kegs and doing a closed loop transfer to prevent oxygen from contacting the final product. I'll be interested to compare the shelf life using this process.
Upthewazzu
Well-Known Member
Keg.
Skip the secondary, dry hop with at least 1oz/gallon, and pressure-force the beer into the keg straight from the carboy.
That's the way. My IPA's punch you in the face with aroma.
Upthewazzu
Well-Known Member
I think it could be done. Easiest way would probably be to invest in a ported big mouth bubbler. The nozzle should stay above the trub, so you could mix in the sugar solution without too much oxygen exposure and bottle straight from that. Cold crashing would be a must, IMO.
There might be other ways that bottlers have experience with.
Like others have stated...oxidation, oxidation, oxidation.
If you don't have commercial bottling equipment no matter how good you are at bottling those hoppy brews won't last the test of time.
If you don't have commercial bottling equipment no matter how good you are at bottling those hoppy brews won't last the test of time.
MrFancyPlants
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When I was bottling with more regularity using an auto-siphon, a bottling wand and swingtops, I noticed that regular bottles would degrade in color and flavor indicating oxidation. But the bombers (larger bottles) turned out fine. I don't know if it was due to the air to beer ratio in the larger bottles being smaller, but you could try filling the bottles a little fuller. Now when I bottle, I do it from the keg and there is generally enough carbonation that I can let it foam over just a little before swinging the bottle shut. This seems to avoid the signs of oxidation even on under filled bottles.
When bottling hoppy beers on the homebrew scale you are going to face some oxidation but the key is minimizing it and compensating for it. If you need extra late boil hops/dry hops etc then account for that. I have bottled an NE IPA that I was very pleased with after 4 months. Just account for it going in and make every effort to minimize splashing when transferring. I find when I keg prime with sugar I get a much less oxidized product.
slym2none
"Lazy extract brewer."
OP already says he bottles. So, anything to do with a keg is NOT the answer.
slym2none
"Lazy extract brewer."
I am so ultra-not-cool. I use a Mr Beer LBK to make 2.5G AG beers. I bottle, and I bottle-prime, i.e., I dump 1/2 to 3/4 teaspoon of table sugar (depending on the type of beer) right into each bottle.
I have made a few really hoppy IPAs and were happy with them. I even sent one to someone here and they gave me positive reviews on it. I bottle straight from the LBK's spigot, taking care to have the beer run down the side of the bottle to minimize splashing, and have never had a "wet cardboard" taste. I even had one bottle of my hoppiest beer ever sit around for a while because I was going to send it to someone but never did, and finally drank it. It had to be 2 months in the bottle, and while it wasn't quite as good as the really fresh ones, that happens to big brewers as well - get, say, a Two-Hearted that's 2 weeks old & one that's two months old, and that's about the difference I had in my beer.
IDK if this helps you or not, but thanks for reading!
so I need to..
1. Keg if I want to avoid this
2. Racking to secondary is the devil
3. Dry hopping is pretty much the devil but do it in the primary if you're going to and try to get it in before you hit FG
4. NO SLOSHING
5. Overflow your bottles a tick to minimize empty space
1. Keg if I want to avoid this
2. Racking to secondary is the devil
3. Dry hopping is pretty much the devil but do it in the primary if you're going to and try to get it in before you hit FG
4. NO SLOSHING
5. Overflow your bottles a tick to minimize empty space
allanmorgan
Well-Known Member
HopWolf
Well-Known Member
There's got to be, I just had a homebrew that had great aroma in the glass, taste was really good but didn't have quite the "punch" on the taste but I loved the nose.
So if you transfer to secondary stop that immediately and do you cold crash? If so how long? See I still bottle and I mostly make neipas and this is really when my bottling flaws hit as the first few neipas I made oxidized within 2-3 weeks of bottling so I changed a few things. First I stopped cold crashing for extended periods of time like 24-36 hrs, now I cold crash for 12hrs max so I have to time it out right. I also bottle using mostly bombers instead of 12ozers and when I bottle I'll fill a bottle and place a cap on top but don't crimp right away, so I'll fill 3 bombers this way or 6 12ozers then I'll crimp. Before I'd fill like 12 bottle and let them sit uncapped then cap and crimp and I think just that little time was allowing more time or exposure to o2. I also overflow the fill a little then withdraw the wand as opposed to stopping right at the top of the bottle. These are just some things that immediately helped me and I haven't had a problem since I started utilizing these techniques to bottle, sure the beers lose something after 1 month but most bottled beer will anyway but lucky for me a month is about as long as I have beer in my fridge before it's gone and a new batch has taken its place. Hope this helps a little.
HopWolf
Well-Known Member
OK been paying attention to the posts and yes, kegging is the way to go But, a boat load of us still bottle in 12oz bottles.
I do use a secondary and not sure why at this point, cold crash for two days, remove it from the fridge, let it settle for a few hours, rack carefully to a covered bottling bucket with the bottling sugar, don't stir, don't slosh then bottle. I don't over fill but I place a cap from the StarSan cup on each bottle right away then crimp.
I'm beginning to think that the kits have cut back on the amount of hops to keep costs down and I can't say I don't care about costs but if I'm going to brew an IPA I want an IPf**king A.
I've also noticed that a fair amount of recipes have eliminated some or all of the late hop additions and moved more to the flameout/whirlpool/hop stand timings of the flavor/aroma hops. Is this a trend or trying to get the most out of the hops you have in a $40 kit?
Another side note here typing about hops, I just opened my last Hopslam canned on 1/4/17(no it's not barleywine) but my clone has better aroma but still not happy.
I do use a secondary and not sure why at this point, cold crash for two days, remove it from the fridge, let it settle for a few hours, rack carefully to a covered bottling bucket with the bottling sugar, don't stir, don't slosh then bottle. I don't over fill but I place a cap from the StarSan cup on each bottle right away then crimp.
I'm beginning to think that the kits have cut back on the amount of hops to keep costs down and I can't say I don't care about costs but if I'm going to brew an IPA I want an IPf**king A.
I've also noticed that a fair amount of recipes have eliminated some or all of the late hop additions and moved more to the flameout/whirlpool/hop stand timings of the flavor/aroma hops. Is this a trend or trying to get the most out of the hops you have in a $40 kit?
Another side note here typing about hops, I just opened my last Hopslam canned on 1/4/17(no it's not barleywine) but my clone has better aroma but still not happy.
1/4/17? That's today's date!
I think it's January 4th. If so, that's pretty old for a hoppy beer
I know. It was a comical observation using the short date format employed by the whole world except the USA.
HopWolf
Well-Known Member
Yes it was Jan 1st, 2017 and it WAY past it's prime, actually I think it was past it's prime on the 10th but I digress.
I do cold crash in a fridge for one or two days and it takes at least 12 hours to get down to 45 degrees or so and I would bottle it at that temp but I let it sit for 6+ hours to settle from moving from the fridge to my work bench and again I'm real careful.
I do cold crash in a fridge for one or two days and it takes at least 12 hours to get down to 45 degrees or so and I would bottle it at that temp but I let it sit for 6+ hours to settle from moving from the fridge to my work bench and again I'm real careful.
Your bucket is full of 'air'. Air is about 20% oxygen. The diffusion rate of air to water/wort is shockingly high - several ppm per hour, and oxidation issues show up around 0.1ppm.
If you exposure it to air at all after fermentation is done, you're done for as far as oxidation.
To put this in perspective, commercial bottling lines will do a triple vacuum/co2 purge routine, then fill the bottle from the bottom, foam the beer, and cap onto foam. They dont' go through that effort for fun. It really does take that much to get air out of bottles.
Limbrizik
Well-Known Member
I have been told (I mostly keg so take this advice with a grain of salt) to place a cap on all your freshly filled bottles and allow them to sit uncrimped for 20-30 min. That gives the yeast time to restart their fermentation process and produce CO2 which effectively should push the O2 out of the still uncrimped top.
