In Search Of A True Clean In Place System

[Big-H]

I have in mind to build a CIP system that can clean everything without disassembly.

I grew up and worked on a dairy until I was 29 years old and therefore know that stainless steel vessels, pipelines and valves can be cleaned in place. I wish I had paid attention better to the components and chemicals used in that application. So now I'm asking if anybody has built a clean in place system for a homebrew scale brewery.

Things I know that will be needed:

• Sanitary Valves (no threads)
• Pump(s) with more flow and pressure than your typical homebrew circulator
• Closed loop to circulate cleaning solution to all components
• Spray balls in the vessels
• Heated solutions

In a typical dairy clean routine after a milking is complete the pipeline is rinsed with warm water. Then there is a detergent wash cycle with 180º water. After that there is an acid wash with 180 degree water to complete the process. Just before the next milking the line is rinsed with a chlorine cycle. Heavy occasional cleaning is accomplished with concentrated chlorine and water. Farmers fight a build up called milk stone that is a protein buildup that I imagine is similar to beer stone.

I know this type of equipment is typically reserved for the big boys but I think it can be done on a small scale too.

Has anybody out there built a CIP system?? What chemicals do you use? Probrewers input would be welcome.
Pictures would be a great addition.

Thanks

 

[Doctor_M]

My understanding is chlorine is a no no for SS. Unless you are brewing with a really big system CIP like you are describing is not very practical, and is probably going to be more trouble than its worth. I CIP my Brewmagic since it has SS piping and my Brewhemoth conicals but it's only because I have no choice. If it were an option I'd rather get in there with my arm and a scrubbing pad and go to town. Just my .02

As for chemicals PBW and Saniclean which are both made by Five star are what I use. Occasionally I run caustic but usually no more then two times a year. I also happen to be a professional brewer at a small nano.

 

[CJ1]

My understanding is chlorine is a no no for SS.

I've heard that on HBT more times than I can count, and I can tell you that the food production industry thinks that is nonsense. We clean and sanitize SS with bleach solution daily. Restaurants and farms do, too.

Highly concentrated chlorine may damage stainless steel, but it only takes about 200 PPM to sanitize.

 

[Doctor_M]

I've heard that on HBT more times than I can count, and I can tell you that the food production industry thinks that is nonsense. We clean and sanitize SS with bleach solution daily. Restaurants and farms do, too.

Highly concentrated chlorine may damage stainless steel, but it only takes about 200 PPM to sanitize.

Maybe so but why take the risk and use it when saniclean can be pretty easily attained? Also lets not forget that small trace amounts ( I believe it's ppb) can lead to off flavors in beer.

 

[Big-H]

My understanding is chlorine is a no no for SS.

I've read not to use chlorine on Ss too but we used it everyday while I was farming. I never saw a degradation in the Stainless never had to replace any milk lin and never ever had to take the lines apart to clean them. They were always absolutely spotless inside.

Now I can see where it would cause some flavor issues and cause problems with fermentation if not rinsed out but I was talking more about it as a once in a while heavy cleaner.

I don't mean to have this degenerate into a chlorine thread. I'm more interested in the mechanics of CIP systems that people have put in place.

I know it's not cost effective but I've seen some pretty elaborate, over the top brew set ups so I know I'm not the first one to go off on a "what if" tangent.

Lets hear about and see those CIP systems!
Thanks again

 

[cyberbackpacker]

The big thing, IMO, to consider is the pump. True CIP pumps have essentially a grooved spindle on which the impeller spins; this insures that the cleaning/sanitizing/rinse gets to all areas of the pump head and especially all of the seals.

Typical March/Chugger pumps do not have this feature and makes a true CIP difficult.

 

[augiedoggy]

I used to work in a restaurant and the only time I saw bleach destroy stainless was when it was often left in the sinks and it ate the bottom and left many pin holes in them.. this took years of it sitting in there for long periods. The bar sinks where the worst.

 

[Big-H]

Going to look at a SS receiver, lines, clamps, fittlings and sanitary pump from a shutdown dairy barn on Tuesday. This may be the stuff I need. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Big-H]

Went to a local dairy that has been out of business for a while on Tuesday. Bought a 240V 3/4 horse sanitary pump, SS receiver tank with liquid level switch, elbows, clamps, filter housings and various pieces of straight pipe in both 1 1/2 and 2 inch sizes. This stuff will let me construct a CIP system...I think. Also, I can build an inline filter and a hop back.

Time to geek out and see what I can build.

I'll post some pictures of the RIMS tube I"m building soon.

 

[Big-H]

Heres a picture of the RIMS tube I built out of some of the salvaged SS line. There are a few purchased pieced in there too. I'm going to do an auto tune on it and brew a batch this weekend.

 

[aangel]

I'll be watching your progress on this. I posted some info about sanitary spec standards I've run into here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f235/need-more-automation-507468/

Best of luck.

 

[Big-H]

I'll be watching your progress on this. I posted some info about sanitary spec standards I've run into here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f235/need-more-automation-507468/

Best of luck.

Thanks. Yes this is a challenge. I've got a pretty good plan in mind to hard pipe the brew process but I still need to think through the CIP system so that it also integrates. My "thinking model" is the dairy pipelines and CIP system that I grew up with. Again I wish I had paid better attention. I remember that the wash vat was automated, (on a timer to activate at a certain time of day and add the correct temp water and chemicals as well as run a preset cycle) as I recall there were three cycles to a wash.

1. Warm water rinse was one pass of warm water to rinse the pipeline, it was not recirculated, just in one end and out the other.
2. 2nd was a detergent wash...don't remember the chemical used but it was 180º water that was recirculated for 10 minutes. There was a air injector that surged air into the system in a on and off cycle. This was to create an extreme amount of turbulence in the system to eliminate the eddy currents and dead spots.
3. 3rd was a chlorine rinse, luke warm water with air injection
4. The system was then shut down and the entire line gravity drained
5. Before the next milking the system was again rinsed with a chlorine rinse.

I know that a brew system would need to be carefully rinsed again so there wouldn't be any chlorine in the system. But there you have it.
My model for CIP brew system.

Any thoughts
The drawing is a crude lashup of my thoughts so far

 

[heckels]

If you haven't already, check out the CIP stuff at Brewers hardware.

http://www.brewershardware.com/CIP-Spray-Balls/

 

[aangel]

Whatever you do, don't use chlorine. Everything I've read suggests chlorine strips the oxidized layer off stainless steel and pits it. Hot PBW cycle (it's designed for CIP), water rinse, and then starsan cycle should be enough. It's possible that I'm wrong, but if dairies use 304 or 316 stainless parts, they must have some unique chlorine-based sanitizing agent which is SS-safe?

 

[Big-H]

Whatever you do, don't use chlorine. Everything I've read suggests chlorine strips the oxidized layer off stainless steel and pits it. Hot PBW cycle (it's designed for CIP), water rinse, and then starsan cycle should be enough. It's possible that I'm wrong, but if dairies use 304 or 316 stainless parts, they must have some unique chlorine-based sanitizing agent which is SS-safe?

Yes it is different, It is 12.5% active ingredient (Sodium Hypochlorite) House hold bleach is much lower about half as strong. I think there is a lot of misinformation out there about this. Dairies use 304 stainless and I've never seen a system pitted or ruined by it. A local dairy just remodeled their milk parlor and put in robotic milkers. After 25 years of use they sold the stainless to another farmer so he could expand his system.

 

[processhead]

Home-brewers can use CIP principles in several areas, although not to the extent used in a commercial food or beverage operation.

One example: After am initial warm water rinse, I use the RIMS pump to circulate hot PBW solution through my system at the end of brew day.

I also put together some fittings that allows me to circulate the cleaning solution through my CFC and hoses, which works pretty well too.

Its amazing how much gunk the PBW solution dissolves compared to just hot water.

I finish up by circulating sanitizer through any gear that will come in contact with the wort/beer post-boil.

 

[BeerGrylls]

I'm in process of scoping an inverted-keggle (bottom drain) system, and this thread is interesting to me. My idea is that with some added complexity in design and increased cost in parts, I can save a lot of time in cleaning and the work involved with doing so. Currently, I take every piece of my brewery to the kitchen sink for cleaning and it's a bear. Am I right to think that CIP is a time and effort saver? I would have to imagine that's the case. I'll follow this discussion, thanks.

 

[aangel]

If done right, automated CIP could reduce the cleaning burden drastically. The challenge is that whole "if done right" part. My holy grail is a sanitary-spec fully automated system with CIP with no parts that require routine disassembling. Personally most of the time spent with brewing equipment should be using it, not cleaning it

 

[Big-H]

I'm in process of scoping an inverted-keggle (bottom drain) system, and this thread is interesting to me. My idea is that with some added complexity in design and increased cost in parts, I can save a lot of time in cleaning and the work involved with doing so. Currently, I take every piece of my brewery to the kitchen sink for cleaning and it's a bear. Am I right to think that CIP is a time and effort saver? I would have to imagine that's the case. I'll follow this discussion, thanks.

If done right, automated CIP could reduce the cleaning burden drastically. The challenge is that whole "if done right" part. My holy grail is a sanitary-spec fully automated system with CIP with no parts that require routine disassembling. Personally most of the time spent with brewing equipment should be using it, not cleaning it

You guys have inspired me. I have a basic system worked out for CIP in a three vessel system. It's pretty simple and involves at least one nano pump or larger pump for the CIP pressure and flow. Its designed to clean the MLT and the brew kettle. The HLT is water only so it's not included in the cleaning loops. I'll work on the drawing and post it soon.

 

[aangel]

You guys have inspired me. I have a basic system worked out for CIP in a three vessel system. It's pretty simple and involves at least one nano pump or larger pump for the CIP pressure and flow. Its designed to clean the MLT and the brew kettle. The HLT is water only so it's not included in the cleaning loops. I'll work on the drawing and post it soon.

I hacked together a crude drawing this morning that satisfies all the requirements for CIP; will be posting next weekend.

 

[Big-H]

I hacked together a crude drawing this morning that satisfies all the requirements for CIP; will be posting next weekend.

I'm very interested to see it. I'm working on mine too

 

[aangel]

Crap, my trial of edraw's expired. does anyone know of a usable free schematic software?

 

[Yooper]

I don't have a true CIP system, but occasionally I do CIP and then tear down and clean every third brew.

My HLT is water only, and that pump is always water only, so it stays out of the loop. My MLT is bottom draining (keg), and I have a pump for wort between it and the BK, and the HERMS coil is in that loop.

I got some chemicals from a brewer friend, and I use PBW, rinse, and then Five-Stars Acid #5 cleaner. The Acid #5 also works to repassivate stainless steel.

The recommendation is to do an alkali wash, burst rinse, then an acid wash (or acid rinse), burst rinse. http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Acid-5-Tech2.pdf

This makes an ultra-clean system.

It does take time, but it's hands-off time as it recirculates. I don't do it after every brewday but someone could.

 

[aangel]

One of the challenges of true CIP is that none of the commonly used home brewer valves are sanitary/cip compatible. ball valves aren't, bufferfly valves aren't, and from what I understand the only valve that IS sanitary/CIP compatible is a "diaphragm isolation valve" and even those need to be at a 15 degree slope to be full-draining and thus sanitary.

I've seen diaphragm isolation valves around 50-100 bucks on alibaba, but I haven't spotted any high temperature actuated ones for a reasonable price yet. I guess a workaround would some quick-disassembling ball valves (brewers hardware has them) and just remove them & replace with steel tubing as needed during the CIP cycle...which isn't ideal whatsoever.

Even more annoying is the fact that I haven't been able to find any variety of 3-way valve that can be disassembled. My flow diagram would be SO MUCH EASIER if they existed.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

How are butterfly valves not cip/sanitary?

 

[aangel]

I read about that over here - http://hollandaptblog.com/2014/01/10/sanitary-butterfly-valves-overview/

My understanding is the shape of the design means they're not fully cleanable unless you disassemble them.

And for completeness, here's why they have to say on ball valves: http://hollandaptblog.com/2014/01/17/1106/

I guess something I forgot to mention is that "sanitary enough" seems to be in play here - even the holland blog mentions that "sanitary" butterfly and ball valves are commonly used in industry. I *have* seen ball valves that come with ports for steam-in-place. THOSE would be sanitary as SIP would kill just about anything, so even if you had a little gunk settle in your valve, it wouldn't be harboring pathogens since you just steamed it. On the other hand...steam in place is so far above our pay grade it's not even worth investigating.

 

[Doctor_M]

Your money, your time, but you are way overthinking this... especially since you are talking about the hot side of your brewery. Plenty of commercial breweries use butterfly valves and run cip and call it "good enough". And they have money at stake...

 

[sandyeggoxj]

When I think CIP I think no elbow grease involved. Had I thought things through when ordering my stout tanks I would have ordered kettles that all and bottom drains so that I could pop a CIP onto a lid and move it from vessel to vessel at the end of the day. An annual or semi-annual deep clean would be a good idea no matter what method you ultimately decide on.

 

[aangel]

Your money, your time, but you are way overthinking this... especially since you are talking about the hot side of your brewery. Plenty of commercial breweries use butterfly valves and run cip and call it "good enough". And they have money at stake...

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. I can see how commercial brewers don't mind having parts which require full breakdown, even daily breakdown. But they're doing that full-time, not as a hobby. It might be a crazy and somewhat unrealistic effort but if I can figure out a full, automated, unattended CIP cycle - or something as close to that as possible - I save myself a few hours per brew day.

I doubt SWMBO will approve the (stupid big) capital investment, and really I can't justify it myself considering we're single income - so for now I'm just hashing out the design which will hopefully help others. It's going to be a combo brew sculpture & CIP apparatus design, wherein the CIP just kind of hooks up to either end of the brew sculpture.

 

[Big-H]

I don't have a true CIP system, but occasionally I do CIP and then tear down and clean every third brew.

My HLT is water only, and that pump is always water only, so it stays out of the loop. My MLT is bottom draining (keg), and I have a pump for wort between it and the BK, and the HERMS coil is in that loop.

I got some chemicals from a brewer friend, and I use PBW, rinse, and then Five-Stars Acid #5 cleaner. The Acid #5 also works to repassivate stainless steel.

The recommendation is to do an alkali wash, burst rinse, then an acid wash (or acid rinse), burst rinse. http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/Acid-5-Tech2.pdf

This makes an ultra-clean system.

It does take time, but it's hands-off time as it recirculates. I don't do it after every brewday but someone could.

This is what I've been looking for...a recommendation for a series of detergent wash (PBW) -rinse- acid wash (Acid #5) - rinse.

Yooper, you've used this and it works well?

Thanks for the info.

 

[Big-H]

This is my shot at a CIP system. It seems to me that it will work.
Any thoughts?

 

[Yooper]

This is what I've been looking for...a recommendation for a series of detergent wash (PBW) -rinse- acid wash (Acid #5) - rinse.

Yooper, you've used this and it works well?

Thanks for the info.

Yes. Like I said, a pro brewer friend is the one who told me how to do it. It's an alkali wash (PBW) followed by rinsing, and then an acid wash or rinse, and then rinse.

 

[BayerischBier]

correct me if I am thinking the wrong way but you should be able to drop one of the pumps and the second rims tube.
I suggest to draw flow-workflows and then you also will see that the three way valves (the upper ones in the "square" below the middle pump) might be not useful at all; just route though the lower set of 3ways?
Think, save $, use them for better beer.

This is my shot at a CIP system. It seems to me that it will work.
Any thoughts?

 

[aangel]

What did you use to draw that?

 

[Big-H]

What did you use to draw that?

ConceptDraw Pro
http://www.conceptdraw.com/solution-park/building-plumbing-piping-plans

They have a free 21 day trial

I liked the Edraw one you mentioned but I use a Mac and its windows based.

 

[aangel]

Cool. I'll download that and hack up my design tomorrow after my radiology exam. Your design and mine are similar.

 

[aangel]

This was my concept. Yours seems to have a simpler flow, but I have a unique restriction: stupidly low water pressure in my (rented) house. Low enough flow/pressure that my water source needs to be a 50 gallon drum plus a pump. Note that this would be controlled by brewtroller or bcs, and i haven't put in the locations for temperature probes or float switches, etc - this is a pure conceptual flow diagram. Oh and I forgot the drain LOL.

Edit: ignore this crap, figured out a better design with far fewer pieces... Super similar to yours but flow allows for recirculation of boiled wort through the chiller until it reaches strike temperature.

 

[Big-H]

figured out a better design with far fewer pieces... Super similar to yours but flow allows for recirculation of boiled wort through the chiller until it reaches strike temperature.

I would like to see the new version. I think I could eliminate a couple things too

 

[Big-H]

Kettle CIP circuit

 

[aangel]

I would like to see the new version. I think I could eliminate a couple things too

I haven't added the water rinse or acid wash cycles yet. Also need to add in the temperature probes, water level sensors, etc. But the gist is here: CIP with *very little* added beyond a CIP-capable pump and two spray balls. It's not a completely automated design; you have to add PBW / starsan at the appropriate time, but I kept the convoluted plumbing and extra parts to a minimum.

For my own needs I'd probably use 2-way, 3-part, triclamp ball valves. That would be the only situation in which I'd be kosher with non-sanitary parts, as those valves are hella easy/fast to disassemble for cleaning. I truly wish I could find 3-way ball valves that are possible to disassemble fully to clean but I've not been able to find a hint of that