In need of a little assistance with Bru'n Water

[Travis K. Jansen]

So I downloaded the spreadsheet, and I'm hoping someone can help me make just a little sense of what i'm looking at. I'm brewing a Spotted Cow clone, cream/kolsch style of course, so I picked Yellow Balanced (Yellow Malty mentioned on the forums, but not available in this sheet?)

I'm starting with RO water, and basically I've been reading that I need to get soft water. I have CaCl and Gypsum on hand. Referring to this image below:

1.) There are seemingly 4 rows that I see important. Am I interpreting this right?
Yellow Balanced row at the top shows what we're aiming for
Target finished water vs. Actual finished water, don't exactly know how these differ
Mashing Water profile

I'm guessing I want my mashing water profile row to match as closely as I can to the top "Yellow Balanced" row.

2.) With only gypsum and cacl, are my numbers in the additions section close enough?

Thanks! Excited to get better at brewing additions with RO water.

 

[NeoBrew]

The mashing water profile row is where you want to try to target. In most cases when you get close those cells turn green. How close is close enough is above my pay grade. I would say you have gotten your profile pretty close.

Your bigger problem is that your estimated mash PH is pretty high. You want that 5.63 to be closer to 5.2 or 5.3. You might consider an acid addition or some acid malt in your mash. I prefer lactic acid for my additions.

It is not uncomon for low SRM mashes (Light colored beer) to need some acid additions to pull the PH down.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

The mashing water profile row is where you want to try to target. In most cases when you get close those cells turn green. How close is close enough is above my pay grade. I would say you have gotten your profile pretty close.

Your bigger problem is that your estimated mash PH is pretty high. You want that 5.63 to be closer to 5.2 or 5.3. You might consider an acid addition or some acid malt in your mash. I prefer lactic acid for my additions.

It is not uncomon for low SRM mashes (Light colored beer) to need some acid additions to pull the PH down.

You know that's interesting. I've heard that before and I even got a pH meter that I haven't set up yet. However I've tried brewing with a little extra acid and I feel like it gave my beer a bit of a sour taste. I wonder if I just put too much in. What kind of impact does the pH have on the beer? Is it just efficiency because I've been getting great efficiency. Or does it have more of an effect on flavor? Thanks for your help and advice on this one.

 

[NeoBrew]

I'm afraid I'm probably not the best advisor for your question. There are others here with far more refined palate and more brewing knowledge than I.

...that said. It could affect both. If you are getting great efficiency, then that may not be a problem. It will affect the final taste of the beer in some way. Some people monitor the finished PH of their beer and have an understanding of what the impacts to the final product are, I don't do that. At least not yet.

 

[jturman35]

I’m no expert but I have brewed about a dozen batches using distilled and Brunwater. I have gotten away thus far with just using Gypsum and Calcium Cholride, maybe a touch of baking soda and a tad of sea salt at times. I usually just focus on Calcium/cholride/sulfate.

Shouldnt “total batch volume” be the total of sparge and mash? I do BIAB and always make this my total mash volume. Also as stated above you need to get your PH down 5.2-5.4

 

[FunkedOut]

The ‘yellow malty’ you seek is ‘yellow full.’

1.) the Target Finished Water Adjustment and Actual Finished Water Adjustment are just that; adjustments.
The Mashing Water Profile is the one you want to match the selected profile (yellow balanced).

2.) the numbers look pretty close. I’d get the sulfate and chloride numbers closer at the expense of a bit higher calcium. Of course, you’re starting over once you select ‘yellow full.’

It won’t take much acid to get that ph down. I wouldn’t go as low as 5.2 because it can add a sour taste. Just bringing it down to 5.5 is an improvement.
Too high a ph can extract tannins.

For this software, batch size is used to calculate beer color.
It should equal the volume into the fermenter plus anything lost to the kettle and chiller. For a no sparge setup, it’s the mash volume minus boil off.

 

[jturman35]

[/QUOTE] For this software, batch size is used to calculate beer color.
It should equal the volume into the fermenter plus anything lost to the kettle and chiller. For a no sparge setup, it’s the mash volume minus boil off.[/QUOTE]

Looks like I been doing it wrong. I will have to go back and see how much this affects the overall water profile. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[mabrungard]

Batch volume is only used for the wort color estimate. There may or may not be ANY correlation between the batch volume and the other volumes since methods and setups vary from brewer to brewer. I’ve known many brewers that calculate higher sparge volume than they actually use in the brew due to the way that their systems operate.

One thing that is important to get right is the mashing water volume since its the actual volume of water that touches the grain that affects pH.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

I’m no expert but I have brewed about a dozen batches using distilled and Brunwater. I have gotten away thus far with just using Gypsum and Calcium Cholride, maybe a touch of baking soda and a tad of sea salt at times. I usually just focus on Calcium/cholride/sulfate.

Shouldnt “total batch volume” be the total of sparge and mash? I do BIAB and always make this my total mash volume. Also as stated above you need to get your PH down 5.2-5.4

I do BIAB too, no sparge. So I mash with about 7.25 gallons most of the time.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Batch volume is only used for the wort color estimate. There may or may not be ANY correlation between the batch volume and the other volumes since methods and setups vary from brewer to brewer. I’ve known many brewers that calculate higher sparge volume than they actually use in the brew due to the way that their systems operate.

One thing that is important to get right is the mashing water volume since its the actual volume of water that touches the grain that affects pH.

So if I mash with 7.25 is the image above correct? I do no sparge and start with RO. I think I followed a tutorial somewhere.

 

[ajdelange]

Just starting out the use of profiles and spreadsheets is more likely to lead you astray than towards a good beer. Once you understand the principles behind brewing water chemistry you can benefit from such aids.

I think of Kölsch as a soft beer for sure and so i brew it with RO water containing about 0.7 g of CaCl2 per gallon. If you go too far below this level it will start to taste thin (low chloride). I don't think any sulfate at all should be used but this is my personal taste. As I know there are others with similar taste I usually advise doing it without any sulfate at all the first time and then adding some while tasting to see if you like it that way. The guy at our brewpub puts quite a bit of sulfate into his Kölsch which gives it a bite that I think ruins the beer but he has gotten medals for it at GABF so its really a matter of de gustibus...

You do not need to be adhering to any profile except broadly. When I say 0.7 g/gal that, of course, implies a profile but anywhere from 0.5 to 1 gram per gallon should be OK.

pH is important. If you are mashing only Pilsner malt with a little wheat you will wind up with a mash pH of 5.6 - 5.8 depending on the particular malt you use. 5.6 is marginally OK but 5.8 is likely to give a beer with dull flavors. You should add some acid to insure that the pH is between 5.4 and 5.6. The easiest way to do this is to add 2 - 3% sauermalz to the grain bill (if you have or can get some sauermalz). To be sure you get the pH right use that meter to check a test mash. If you haven't used a meter before be sure to check the Sticky in this forum on calibration.

The volume of the water touching the grain has little (if any) effect on mash pH unless
1)The water is alkaline (RO water isn't)
2)The acid being used has been added to the water. It hasn't if sauermalz is being used.
3)The water is very hard in which case there is an effect but it is usually minor.

 

[Travis K. Jansen]

Ajdelange I used your primer to make a hefe and I think k I did something wrong. I used 2% acidulated malt and it came out way too sour and killed that lovely banana flavor. Is saurmalz same as acid malt?

 

[leesmith]

So if I mash with 7.25 is the image above correct? I do no sparge and start with RO. I think I followed a tutorial somewhere.

Your "Target Finished Water Adjustment" is your "Desired Water Profile" in this case. The "Actual Finished Water Profile" is your water after you enter in your "Water Additions".

Don't enter in a dilution percentage number. As far as I can tell, the "Existing Water Profile" should be your RO water (which should be treated like distilled unless you know the actual ion content). Distilled water is considered zeros across the board and a ph of around 7. In the "Water Report Input" tab keep everything at zero and change the ph to 7. You could fire up your ph meter and test the water and get the actual reading.

You should play with the grams per gallon in the "Water Additions" section to get the "Actual Finished Water Adjustment" closer to the "Target Finished Water Adjustment".

5.2 ph will not add a sour taste.

No...enter in 7.25 into the "Mash" "Water volume" box.

Oh and did I mention....fire up your ph meter.

*Edit: As far as I can tell when doing BIAB and using RO water as an "Existing Water Profile" the "Mashing Water Profile" will end up the same as the "Actual Finished Water Adjustment".

 

[ajdelange]

Ajdelange I used your primer to make a hefe and I think k I did something wrong. I used 2% acidulated malt and it came out way too sour and killed that lovely banana flavor.

Wheat malts seem to exhibit unusually high DI mash pH and normal buffering so mash pH with 2% sauermalz (which is the same as acid malt) should have resulted in fairly high mash pH. Without actual pH readings I can only guess, though. The pH (sourness) of the finished beer is determined more by the yeast or other organisms in the fermenting wort than by the mash/kettle pH. Without knowing any further details my guess would be that in your case "other organisms" were responsible. Now a wheat beer should be a bit tart but not "way too sour". The banana aroma/flavor is from amyl acetate produced by the yeast. Its production depends on yeast strain and fermentation temperature.