In Beersmith, mash time isn't affecting OG

[BrewVerymore]

Hi there. I'm working on Beersmith 2 and have noticed that in the Mash tab the length of the mash doesn't seem to affect the OG whether I set the mash length to 10 minutes or 90 minutes it remains the same.

Am I doing something wrong here? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[LLBeanJ]

That's because, generally speaking, mash length does not affect OG. BS is assuming that you are mashing long enough to achieve full conversion and estimates OG based on that.

 

[Oginme]

To add to what LLBeanJ has correctly stated, BeerSmith assumes that you are consistent in your process, that you measure your efficiency and reflect that in your equipment profile. It does not predict mash efficiency, but calculates it out based upon the brew house efficiency you tell the program that you attain. If you only mash for 10 minutes on a regular basis, your actual extraction of sugars and inevitable brew house efficiency attained would reflect that lower mash efficiency.

 

[MrPowers]

They have both answered the question well, but to simplify it further, mash time doesn't really affect starting gravity. Starting gravity is affected by the amount of grain (or sugar, etc...) and how well you are able to "extract" sugars from that grain (which is called mash efficiency). There are a number of factors that affect how well you can extract from the grain such as the crush, mash PH, etc...

 

[bendog15]

I mash for 60 min on pretty much everything. Even lagers. Never had a problem and efficiency is always good.

 

[BrewVerymore]

Thanks guys that clears things up

 

[RM-MN]

The conversion from starches to sugars goes very quickly. I've seen full conversion in less than 5 minutes. To get that quick conversion the grain must be milled to near flour consistency. For the next 58 minutes the only thing happening is the extraction of the sugar and flavors from the malts. With the finely milled grains that process goes quickly too but is not instantaneous. I seem to get the best flavor if I wait 20 minutes but I wouldn't recommend less than 30. A 10 minute mash gets me to the planned OG but the beer is lacking flavor.

 

[Smellyglove]

Mash time does affect OG. If you mash for three hours you will get a higher OG than if you mash for 30 minutes. If you have full conversion after five minutes you have only converted the starches which are soluble at that point. If you mash for 3 hours more starches will get soluble and you will hit a higher OG. After conversion you have enzyme activity, which dictates how fermentable your preboil wort will be.

So if you mash for like 20 minutes you will have full conversion of the starches made available at that point, but beta-amylase has not had much time to convert, so you will get a higher FG than if you mash for 60 minutes, the effect is more noticable in a big beer than a small beer.

 

[ba-brewer]

If you use one of the prefab batch mash profile the time does change, full body drops to 45min light body moved out to 75min.

I think it is better to check for complete conversion then simply rely on time.

 

[Smellyglove]

If you use one of the prefab batch mash profile the time does change, full body drops to 45min light body moved out to 75min.

I think it is better to check for complete conversion then simply rely on time.

Time is actually more important than looking for complete conversion. Complete conversion (of soluble starches at the point of the iodine test) will take place in about 10-15 minutes. But the enzymatic activity will continue for a way longer time. Read my post above. That's why the time in BS changes for Full body and light body, enzymatic activity, not conversion.

 

[ba-brewer]

Time is actually more important than looking for complete conversion. Complete conversion (of soluble starches at the point of the iodine test) will take place in about 10-15 minutes. But the enzymatic activity will continue for a way longer time. Read my post above. That's why the time in BS changes for Full body and light body, enzymatic activity, not conversion.

OK conversion might be the wrong word. I check for the gravity to approach the calculated estimate. My efficiency moved around by +/- 5 points before I started measuring the gravity. I do a pretty fine milling of my grain and sometimes even at 152F - 154F it takes 80min to reach the target gravity.

 

[Smellyglove]

OK conversion might be the wrong word. I check for the gravity to approach the calculated estimate. My efficiency moved around by +/- 5 points before I started measuring the gravity. I do a pretty fine milling of my grain and sometimes even at 152F - 154F it takes 80min to reach the target gravity.

That sounds strange. I always do a mashout and I know that the temp raise to the mash out will yield me about 3-4 points more due to more starches get soluble, and converted around 70-72C than at my mash temp which usually is in the mid 60's C. I reach full conversion of the available starches after around 15 minutes after dough in. Meaning that if I'm about 3 pts low at my mash-temp, I know I'm good.

I recirculate though, which does help at least a little bit in getting faster conversion.

 

[ba-brewer]

That is why measuring is a good thing.

 

[Smellyglove]

That is why measuring is a good thing.

Well, sort of yeah. But my point is that the conversion of the available starches will more or less always be done in 15-20 minutes. Unless you messed up your temps, you know that it will happen after 15-20 minutes, every single time. So there's no need to measure conversion.. It's like getting up just to check that the sun is still there..

You said that it's better to look for conversion. But If you'd want to do a dry beer, and start to lauter after 20 minutes, you will not get as dry beer as the one you'd lauter after maybe 90 minutes. That's my point. Even if conversion has been done after 20 minutes.

 

[ba-brewer]

Well, sort of yeah. But my point is that the conversion of the available starches will more or less always be done in 15-20 minutes. Unless you messed up your temps, you know that it will happen after 15-20 minutes, every single time. So there's no need to measure conversion.. It's like getting up just to check that the sun is still there...

Sort of funny I know my gravity by literally looking toward the sun.

That sounds strange. I always do a mashout and I know that the temp raise to the mash out will yield me about 3-4 points more due to more starches get soluble, and converted around 70-72C than at my mash temp which usually is in the mid 60's C. I reach full conversion of the available starches after around 15 minutes after dough in. Meaning that if I'm about 3 pts low at my mash-temp, I know I'm good.

...

How do you know you are 3 pts low without looking for the sun, I mean measuring?

 

[Smellyglove]

Sort of funny I know my gravity by literally looking toward the sun.




How do you know you are 3 pts low without looking for the sun, I mean measuring?

I measure SG, not conversion.

Like I said. I don't do Iodine tests to check for conversion, I measure SG to see if I'm right where I should be. My point was that there's no need to check for complete conversion of the available starches, it only tells you that much.. conversion has happened. If I do an SG reading maybe 20 minutes in, and I'm right where I should be, I also know that conversion has taken place.. You don't get sugars without conversion..

But, the wort profile is completely different after one hour of mashing comparing to twenty minutes. That's why time matters..

 

[RM-MN]

Time is actually more important than looking for complete conversion. Complete conversion (of soluble starches at the point of the iodine test) will take place in about 10-15 minutes. But the enzymatic activity will continue for a way longer time. Read my post above. That's why the time in BS changes for Full body and light body, enzymatic activity, not conversion.

Compete conversion of the available starches will take less than 2 minutes. If your grains are milled to near flour consistency most of the starches are exposed and gelatinize nearly instantly. Once conversion is complete I don't find any more changes in fermentability from waiting longer. If your grain particles are larger, then you are waiting for more gelatinization of the starch so the enzymes can work on them. Then the more time changes the fermentability.

 

[Smellyglove]

Compete conversion of the available starches will take less than 2 minutes. If your grains are milled to near flour consistency most of the starches are exposed and gelatinize nearly instantly. Once conversion is complete I don't find any more changes in fermentability from waiting longer. If your grain particles are larger, then you are waiting for more gelatinization of the starch so the enzymes can work on them. Then the more time changes the fermentability.

I've never measured after two mins, but that's amazingngly fast.

So, you mean that if you lauter right after measured complete conversion, you'd get the same FG on a big beer as if you mashed for 120 minutes?

 

[RM-MN]

I've never measured after two mins, but that's amazingngly fast.

So, you mean that if you lauter right after measured complete conversion, you'd get the same FG on a big beer as if you mashed for 120 minutes?

I haven't tried that long mash but the OG and FG for as near identical batches were the same for a short mash as a longer mash in my testing. The difference was in the taste. Apparently it takes longer to extract flavor than to convert starches as the very short mashes had little flavor. I do some 20 minute mashes and they come out fine but I wouldn't recommend anything less than 30 except for experimenting.

 

[Smellyglove]

I haven't tried that long mash but the OG and FG for as near identical batches were the same for a short mash as a longer mash in my testing. The difference was in the taste. Apparently it takes longer to extract flavor than to convert starches as the very short mashes had little flavor. I do some 20 minute mashes and they come out fine but I wouldn't recommend anything less than 30 except for experimenting.

I've had a few times I got stuck doing something else during brewday, so my mash was kept at mash temp for several hours before I was able to get back to the brewery and turn it up to mashout. The FG dropped, and the yield increased. I've also read that people with a tight time schedule who tried mashing overnight reported that FG dropped and yield increased.

 

[RM-MN]

I've had a few times I got stuck doing something else during brewday, so my mash was kept at mash temp for several hours before I was able to get back to the brewery and turn it up to mashout. The FG dropped, and the yield increased. I've also read that people with a tight time schedule who tried mashing overnight reported that FG dropped and yield increased.

The answer to that is the crush of the grain. If the grain particles are large (relative) it take more time to get the starch gelatinized. When the starch gelatinizes, conversion happens if the enzymes are still active. With more time in the mash tun, unless heat is applied, temperature will drop which will make the beta amylase more active gaining you a more fermentable wort. Had you brought the mash to mash out temp, that would have stopped the conversion.

 

[Smellyglove]

The answer to that is the crush of the grain. If the grain particles are large (relative) it take more time to get the starch gelatinized. When the starch gelatinizes, conversion happens if the enzymes are still active. With more time in the mash tun, unless heat is applied, temperature will drop which will make the beta amylase more active gaining you a more fermentable wort. Had you brought the mash to mash out temp, that would have stopped the conversion.

It's with a HERMS.. I know what you're saying, but still. Longer mash times gives you a more fermentable wort as long as it's in in a range where beta-amylase doesn't get denatured to quickly.

Alphas are the first ones to do noticable work, excluding limit dextrinase, if you do a one or two (mashout) step mash, as those enzymes work mostly up to 60c. So If you lauter shortly after conversion, beta amylase hasn't had enough time to really do it's work, and beta's are slower than alphas, so they need time. So like I said, in a big beer, with lots of points, you'll see a bigger difference.

That's at least my standpoint.

 

[CudaJoe]

I always mash at least 60 minutes and check the conversion via iodine test. If I dont see blue/black, then its good to go.

 

[Smellyglove]

I always mash at least 60 minutes and check the conversion via iodine test. If I dont see blue/black, then its good to go.

Your test would most probably not show blue or black after 15 minutes..

But if you'd raise the temps to 72C, from 60's, where you're mashing, and immediately after do another test, it probably would show that starches are present..

 

[CudaJoe]

youd be surprised then.

 

[Smellyglove]

youd be surprised then.

I edited my post and added one more line.

If you still get a positive iodine-test after 60 minutes, I would think that you do not recirculate/stir and have a thick mash/water ratio.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I've never measured after two mins, but that's amazingngly fast.

So, you mean that if you lauter right after measured complete conversion, you'd get the same FG on a big beer as if you mashed for 120 minutes?

FWIW I have never measured anything other than original gravity and final gravity, I guess I never felt gravity readings of anything else were worth the effort?

 

[Smellyglove]

FWIW I have never measured anything other than original gravity and final gravity, I guess I never felt gravity readings of anything else were worth the effort?

They are somewhat not. But..

Let's say you're making a beer you've done lots of time before, then you usually just want to take an OG reading just to confirm that you landed your OG.

But, If I'm making a beer with a new grist, I like to take a gravity reading just to see if my calculations of OG were at least somewhere in the ballpark. As you do or do not know, more malt gives you lower efficiencies, so grists with different amount of malt will give you a different efficiency. So taking a gravity reading preboil will give you an answer to if you'd want to adjust with either DME, LME, or a tweaked boil-time, or with a water-dillution, to hit your targeted OG.

 

[helibrewer]

Mash relationships:
Higher temps = lower fermentability, higher extract yield
Lower temps = higher fermentability, lower extract yield
Thin mash (>3 L:G) = increased extract yield
Thick mash (<3 L:G) = higher fermentability

Beta amylase is sensitive and benefits from a thicker mash. Alpha amylase can work on ungelatinized amylopectin, however the resulting amylose segments must be gelatinized for Beta Amylase to work.

 

[ba-brewer]

Mash relationships:
Higher temps = lower fermentability, higher extract yield
Lower temps = higher fermentability, lower extract yield
Thin mash (>3 L:G) = increased extract yield
Thick mash (<3 L:G) = higher fermentability

Beta amylase is sensitive and benefits from a thicker mash. Alpha amylase can work on ungelatinized amylopectin, however the resulting amylose segments must be gelatinized for Beta Amylase to work.

Some of your item points look different from what I have seen. I was under the impression a thin mash is good for beta and higher fermentable wort and thick mash favors alpha and less fermentable worts. I have not seen direct connections to yield and temp before.

Also the highest gravity came from the upped range of the beta temp where alpha is more active.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Starch_Conversion

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

They are somewhat not. But..

Let's say you're making a beer you've done lots of time before, then you usually just want to take an OG reading just to confirm that you landed your OG.

But, If I'm making a beer with a new grist, I like to take a gravity reading just to see if my calculations of OG were at least somewhere in the ballpark. As you do or do not know, more malt gives you lower efficiencies, so grists with different amount of malt will give you a different efficiency. So taking a gravity reading preboil will give you an answer to if you'd want to adjust with either DME, LME, or a tweaked boil-time, or with a water-dillution, to hit your targeted OG.

Using BIAB my mash thickness is typically in the 2.5qt/lb range or higher, that may be why my efficiencies are easier to predict?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Beta amylase is sensitive and benefits from a thicker mash. Alpha amylase can work on ungelatinized amylopectin, however the resulting amylose segments must be gelatinized for Beta Amylase to work.

Not to mention the impact of wort pH on alpha and beta amylase on fermentability.

 

[Smellyglove]

Using BIAB my mash thickness is typically in the 2.5qt/lb range or higher, that may be why my efficiencies are easier to predict?

Your efficiencies will drop pretty much linear if you use the same water/grist ratio.

Efficiency will go up if you're up for some extended boil time though, if you sparge with more water, to hit the targeted volume.

 

[ba-brewer]

I measure SG, not conversion.

Like I said. I don't do Iodine tests to check for conversion, I measure SG to see if I'm right where I should be. My point was that there's no need to check for complete conversion of the available starches, it only tells you that much.. conversion has happened. If I do an SG reading maybe 20 minutes in, and I'm right where I should be, I also know that conversion has taken place.. You don't get sugars without conversion..

But, the wort profile is completely different after one hour of mashing comparing to twenty minutes. That's why time matters..

If you measure gravity you are measuring conversion. Yes time matters, but time alone can be a poor determining factor when to stop your mash.

Everyone system will behave slightly different, what is your setup and parameters?


I use a 3 vessel system with a water to grain ratio in the 1.6 to 2 qt/lb range, at 20min my gravity is normally 70-80% of the way to my calculated estimate with temp in 145-154 range. I have only recently started using the higher water to grain ratio because it was taking too long to get to my calculated gravity and it has helped to speed things up. The wetter mash did not really effect the 20min point, but did help to get the last 20% done faster. I do condition my grain to preserve the husks so my .030 gap may actually be equivalent to a larger gap of dry milled grain.

 

[Smellyglove]

If you measure gravity you are measuring conversion. Yes time matters, but time alone can be a poor determining factor when to stop your mash.

Everyone system will behave slightly different, what is your setup and parameters?


I use a 3 vessel system with a water to grain ratio in the 1.6 to 2 qt/lb range, at 20min my gravity is normally 70-80% of the way to my calculated estimate with temp in 145-154 range. I have only recently started using the higher water to grain ratio because it was taking too long to get to my calculated gravity and it has helped to speed things up. The wetter mash did not really effect the 20min point, but did help to get the last 20% done faster. I do condition my grain to preserve the husks so my .030 gap may actually be equivalent to a larger gap of dry milled grain.

Yea I'm measuring conversion with the gravity reading, but I don't measure gravity for the sake of measuring conversion. By taking gravity readings I only know the gravity, and that something has converted. If this would be on an unknown setup I would not know if the malt had been fully converted, so in that case I would't call it that I was "measuring conversion.."

I use a two vessel no-sparge setup. Best system I've ever had.