I'm never %&!@#$ing around with fruit in secondary again

[the-adjunct-hippie]

I'm sick of infections. Every time I add fruit - no matter if I boil it, soak it in whiskey, or vodka, or blend it with campden and vodka, it does not matter - I get a tart, sour, infected beer.

I'm only going to be doing fruit additions in the mash and boil, and then adding flavorings as I see fit afterwards. This is ridiculous. I've had like 10 batches dealing with fruit ALL go bad. Disgusting. Dumping out 27 bottles of infected banana's foster stout now.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sure it's not your equipment that's contaminated?

Consider other options for fruit:
WLP300 - banana
WLP644 - mango and pineapple
OYL Voss Kveik - fresh orange
WY5526 - cherry pie
WLP500 - cherry and plum
Etc.

The flavorings I've used from Brewer's Best are good.

 

[Zuljin]

It's been a while since I tried a fruit flavoring. Was never pleased with them. They taste fake.

 

[RM-MN]

There's a simple way to avoid infections in secondary. Don't do secondaries. They aren't needed and only give your beer the opportunity to get oxidated or infected.

During primary your beer has so much CO2 above it that no bacteria can infect it. When you move to secondary you leave that CO2 behind and it is replaced with just air that contains oxygen. That oxygen it what the bacteria (only a few can survive in beer and they require oxygen) need to reproduce. Instead of putting your fruit into the beer in secondary, do it in primary. Only open the primary just enough to get the fruit in and get it closed as soon as possible to limit the oxygen that is admitted.

 

[thehaze]

I never did secondary, but I bottled my first beer that had fruit added to fermenter, 3 weeks ago. It came out very good, but I'm hoping it will become a bit more tart.

I think you have an overall contamination problem somewhere, and it is not the fruit that cause the issues.

 

[Hermit]

There's a simple way to avoid infections in secondary. Don't do secondaries. They aren't needed and only give your beer the opportunity to get oxidated or infected.

During primary your beer has so much CO2 above it that no bacteria can infect it. When you move to secondary you leave that CO2 behind and it is replaced with just air that contains oxygen. That oxygen it what the bacteria (only a few can survive in beer and they require oxygen) need to reproduce. Instead of putting your fruit into the beer in secondary, do it in primary. Only open the primary just enough to get the fruit in and get it closed as soon as possible to limit the oxygen that is admitted.

After fermentation there is CO2 left in the beer. If you rack it to a secondary and don't leave head room then the CO2 coming out of the beer over time should protect it from oxidation. Some folks dry hopping the secondary find out the hard way just how much CO2 is left over. Many people bulk age beers, especially the bigger beers. There are definite positives to bulk aging. Over time certain compounds will settle out.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I'm sick of infections. Every time I add fruit - no matter if I boil it, soak it in whiskey, or vodka, or blend it with campden and vodka, it does not matter - I get a tart, sour, infected beer.

I'm only going to be doing fruit additions in the mash and boil, and then adding flavorings as I see fit afterwards. This is ridiculous. I've had like 10 batches dealing with fruit ALL go bad. Disgusting. Dumping out 27 bottles of infected banana's foster stout now.

maybe it actually was turning out better than you think you just needed to give it more time to level out, it was your natural sour stout.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

There's a simple way to avoid infections in secondary. Don't do secondaries. They aren't needed and only give your beer the opportunity to get oxidated or infected.

During primary your beer has so much CO2 above it that no bacteria can infect it. When you move to secondary you leave that CO2 behind and it is replaced with just air that contains oxygen. That oxygen it what the bacteria (only a few can survive in beer and they require oxygen) need to reproduce. Instead of putting your fruit into the beer in secondary, do it in primary. Only open the primary just enough to get the fruit in and get it closed as soon as possible to limit the oxygen that is admitted.

this is smart i didn't think about this.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Secondary vessel increases risk of contamination because of exposure to more surfaces and airborne microbes.

Some bacteria require oxygen to create off-flavors, such as acetic acid bacteria.

However adding fruit to secondary vessel causes a true secondary fermentation, which purges the secondary vessel of oxygen.

Also, lactic acid bacteria and many wild yeasts grow in anaerobic conditions.

Furthermore, many contaminations do occur in primary, especially when people open their primary vessel to add a bunch of fruit with wild microbes on it... or if their equipment is harboring a wild culture.

Over time certain compounds will settle out.

What compounds? Many brewers cold crash and gelatin fine to drop out yeast and haze without exposing the beer to oxygen or additional contamination risk.

 

[Hermit]

I've seen time/temp charts of settling rates, mostly dictated by size. I don't remember specifics at the moment and don't feel like hunting as it won't change my methods so it isn't worth my time. Thousands of folks secondary beer, wine, mead and assorted fermented beverages without oxygen and contamination problems. You can just as well contaminate using fining agents. You are allowed to cower in fear of secondaries if you wish, but those of us that have used them for years without incident will continue to do so. I suggest perhaps you look into your sanitation procedures more carefully if this is a problem for you and perhaps you'll learn the benefits of bulk aging your beverages. Gotta assume you don't do lagers?

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Cower in fear of secondaries?

Dude I just asked for an explanation.

 

[GnenieGone]

Something else has to be happening. I've added frozen and fresh fruit all the time and never had an infection. Are you cold crashing and then adding potassium sorbate?

2nd the Brewers Best extracts...they're the bomb.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I've seen time/temp charts of settling rates, mostly dictated by size. I don't remember specifics at the moment and don't feel like hunting as it won't change my methods so it isn't worth my time. Thousands of folks secondary beer, wine, mead and assorted fermented beverages without oxygen and contamination problems. You can just as well contaminate using fining agents. You are allowed to cower in fear of secondaries if you wish, but those of us that have used them for years without incident will continue to do so. I suggest perhaps you look into your sanitation procedures more carefully if this is a problem for you and perhaps you'll learn the benefits of bulk aging your beverages. Gotta assume you don't do lagers?

Cheers!

I don't do secondaries either, unless necessary for additions like fruit or aging a stout. My lagers I've done, I don't do a real secondary. I transfer out of primary into the serving keg and lager under 2-3 psi for a few weeks, until it's where I want it. Just throwing in my methods as well.

Something else has to be happening. I've added frozen and fresh fruit all the time and never had an infection. Are you cold crashing and then adding potassium sorbate?

2nd the Brewers Best extracts...they're the bomb.

Agreed. Something else has to be the culprit. I've done numerous fruit beers and never had an infection from it.

You say you get a tart, sour, infected beer. Are you saying you have an infection based solely on a tart flavor from fruit? What fruit have you used and in what style beer?

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

I don't do secondaries either, unless necessary for additions like fruit or aging a stout. My lagers I've done, I don't do a real secondary. I transfer out of primary into the serving keg and lager under 2-3 psi for a few weeks, until it's where I want it. Just throwing in my methods as well.



Agreed. Something else has to be the culprit. I've done numerous fruit beers and never had an infection from it.

You say you get a tart, sour, infected beer. Are you saying you have an infection based solely on a tart flavor from fruit? What fruit have you used and in what style beer?

This last stout used 3 bananas chopped and placed in a sanitized hop bag with 2 tbsp of cinnamon and soaked in potent apple whiskey in a Tupper Ware container for a half hour. I poured the contents of The tupper Ware container into the beer after it was transferred to a secondary sanitized vessel, then dropped the bag with bananas in it. It sat for 3 weeks. I tasted it at bottling and thought , "this could have a twinge of infection" but didn't know for sure until I opened the bottle a week later, and sure enough I have a sour banana stout.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Could it be the bag? I've read on this forum multiple times that bags are very difficult if not impossible to sanitize due to all the holes. Do you always use a bag vs throwing the fruit loose in the fermenter?

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

Could it be the bag? I've read on this forum multiple times that bags are very difficult if not impossible to sanitize due to all the holes. Do you always use a bag vs throwing the fruit loose in the fermenter?

Yes always so my racking cane to my bottling bucket doesn't get stuck

Edit : but dry hopping never produces infection, so maybe I can rule out the bags

 

[the-adjunct-hippie]

FYI I've never had problems with pineapple or oranges.

Although if I try again, I bet I will.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Let's get some myths out of the way...

Soaking in alcohol or sanitizer does not sanitize fruit.
Wild microbes live inside the fruit as well.

Sanitizers only work on clean, non-pourous surfaces. Same goes for alcohol, and alcohol is effective at 70% (140 proof); lower or higher concentrations may not fully sanitize.

Freezing does not sanitize, though it may or may not reduce the population. Some portion of microbes happily survive freezing conditions.

Heat is the most reliable way to sanitize fruit. Bringing to a boil will ensure eradication of live microbes. However, heat does not kill spores, so maintain good fermentation practices.
Sulfiting fruit juice (after pressing) is a good option as well since it won't have a flavor impact. The dosage NEEDS to be based on pH since it is the molecular SO2 fraction that's responsible for antimicrobial activity. 1-2ppm molecular SO2 for 24 hours and then aerated before adding to beer should be plenty adequate.
Hopping rate is important to prevent beer from becoming sour since hops inhibit growth of lactic acid bacteria. If you don't want high IBU, consider using a higher quantity of a low AA hop (e.g. use Saaz instead of Magnum).

Cheers

 

[Vale71]

I think the most likely culprit is the wild yeast infested fruit. A clean bag is not going to have 1000th the microbial charge of a single piece of fruit. Fruit that has a peel that can/must be removed is relatively safe, as long as the peel is intact and hasn't let any nasties in.

 

[Vale71]

There's a simple way to avoid infections in secondary. Don't do secondaries. They aren't needed and only give your beer the opportunity to get oxidated or infected.

During primary your beer has so much CO2 above it that no bacteria can infect it. When you move to secondary you leave that CO2 behind and it is replaced with just air that contains oxygen. That oxygen it what the bacteria (only a few can survive in beer and they require oxygen) need to reproduce. Instead of putting your fruit into the beer in secondary, do it in primary. Only open the primary just enough to get the fruit in and get it closed as soon as possible to limit the oxygen that is admitted.

If only that were really so. Most beer spoling organisms, from Brett to Pedios to lactos, are anaerobic and will thrive in beer in the absence of any oxygen. If that weren't the case than bottled or kegged beer would never spoil. Unfortunately it can and, on occasion, it does.

 

[stz]

That sucks. Try some different fruit products. Aseptic puree, concentrate, freeze dried powder and so on.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fruit that has a peel that can/must be removed is relatively safe, as long as the peel is intact and hasn't let any nasties in.

Besides the impossibility of removing a peel aseptically, wild microbes easily penetrate fruit and vegetables and live inside.
Otherwise the fruit would never spoil, right?