I'm missing something

[Merleti]

I'm missing something with most of my beers. They just don't seem to clean up until 6 months. I use temp controlled fermentation. The water used is R.O. Elements added for the region of were the beer was made. All grain brewing. Yeast is done by starters. They clean up eventually so bacterial issues are out.?
Any help will help and Thank you in advance.

 

[Setesh]

Can you walk us through a normal brew day in detail so we can have an idea of what to look for. If I was standing there watching you it would be one thing, but I don't have that luxury so I need to know what your brew day looks like so I can look for likely culprits, same for all those much more knowledgeable than me. Maybe even give your latest batch as an example, and what exactly you find lacking?

 

[Shenanigan]

I'm only a noob, but what do you mean by "missing something?" Are they just not wowing you, is there an off flavor, what?

 

[Merleti]

Shenanigan "missing something" meaning I would like to know what I'm doing wrong.I just seem to have to wait 6 months for the beer to clean up.

Setesh
My gamut of two during the brewing are and I'll keep it simple.
Stout
Heat water to add grains stable 152 deg.
raise to 168 10 min.
fly sparge 168
boil add hops cool.
Belgium Pale ale
Best beer I've made
heat to 132 degrees add grain 30 min
heat to 137 15 min
Family emergency cover and come back in 2 hours I'm thinking. Maybe more or less.
heat to 150 15 min
heat to 168 10 min
boil add hops
As you can see my gamut of brewing. Both good beers in six months.
Fermentation
Stout
Brewed 2/27 bottled 4/6
temp ferm 67 deg.

Belgium
brewed 1/27 bottled 2/10
ferm 67

I've brewed other beers but these were the ones that were the closet all around and ferm together. Minus the brewing time. They both have the same finish times as the others.

Am I creating the same off flavors that take 6 month to clean? Could the water I'm using be to clean? The Belgium did not have an acid rest, but did sit some time. I could understand the off flavors since the grain sat at a temp for extra time, but the same result of 6 month for all the others?
Thank you again for all your help.

 

[unionrdr]

I noticed mine got better when I got my barley crusher grain mill. The factory .039" setting gives a great crush with less of the floury part. And I use Fivestar Super Moss the last 10 minutes of the boil. clearer & cleaner flavor. Ferment temps also play a big roll in getting less off flavors as well as diecytl rests,& all that.

 

[cavalrymsh]

You didn't mention how big these beers were, or how you treated the wort prior to iniculation (o2, nutrients, etc) . Can you elaborate? I think union is hot in the trail with the ferm ...

 

[Bamsdealer]

Sounds like you're doing everything right. I do a single infusion w no mashout and mine turn out great.

Since you're saying your beer takes a while to clean up, maybe try a clean fermenting yeast like California Ale. Let it ferment in the low to mid 60s and put it in a warmer area of your house for a week after you've hit your final gravity. For simplicity, skip the secondary. Bottle and wait a month. You should have a great, clean beer.

 

[Setesh]

Thanks for explaining your process!

Can you describe the off flavors you are getting? You say temp controlled fermentation. Are you measuring air temp or actual beer temp. Air temp will be much cooler than actual beer temp during active fermentation. You could easily get off flavors by measuring air temp and therefore fermenting too hot. Also, what were the OGs of those beers?

 

[Yooper]

Elements added for the region of were the beer was made.

That is what sticks out at me. I think trying to match a region of the area where the beer was made is a huge mistake most of the time.

You'd have to add alkalinity, for example, to get to some of those profiles and that will have a negative flavor impact.

You don't know what the Burton brewers did to their water, for example, so the profile of the water that is currently in that area may not be the actual brewing water.

Please see the Water Primer in the Brewing Science area for more information. Also, mabrungard just presented a Historic Water seminar at the NHC that talks about this, so if you want more information about water and how to use it appropriately, check out his brunwater spreadsheet/website. It helped me so much!

 

[chickypad]

Agree with all the above, and we still haven't heard what flavors you are finding "clean up" after 6 months - astringent, green apple, hot, etc. Maybe give us a whole recipe with water additions, process, OG/FG, and what off flavor you noticed.

 

[Pappers_]

Agreed with most of the above. My little addition is to encourage you to clarify what you mean by "clean up" - use your palette and descriptive words to be more precise about what is going on. Perhaps find a local homebrew club and bring your beers for some feedback, so that you can describe what the problem better. Finding a solution will be less random if the problem is defined a little better.

 

[Merleti]

Thank you all for your help. I know I've given limited info, but you are still sticking in to help.
Uniondr I forgot to add I use 1/2 whrifloc tab.
cavalrymsh No nutrients were added. Wort is getting airated by a mix-stir agitator for 3-5 min.
Setesh It is hard for me to describe the flavor as I have never sat down with someone who knows. The best way I could describe it is it taste like someone mixed the lees in and served the beer. I always leave them at the bottom of the bottle. For fermantaion temp control I use a small freezer with a ranco controller. The probe is strapped to the outside of the carboy. I've even started a Belgum at 67 deg with the same results. O.G. are in the range of 1.046-1.056
Yooper I add element such as calcium chloride,salt gypsum,ect since I am using R.O. water. I have to as the TDS of the water is 2ppm or less. My levels before adding grains of one batch were pH 6.9, Hardness 135, alkalinity 115, calcium 70ppm, magnesium 40 ppm
Chickypad the final gravity range between 1.004-1.011.

On my last brew I bottled yesterday it tasted better than all the others after 3 months. I'm not sure it will just take a month and be ready, but it shows promise. The things I did different were start the fermentation at 68 deg. Two days later increase the temp 1 degree per day till 72 deg. After two weeks increase it to 75 deg for a week. I also payed more attention to making sure I did not get trub into the fermentation bottle by straining it with a small mesh strainer. Finally I added White Labs yeast nutrients. I also noticed I did have a Pilsner that only took 2 months to finish. I had added 1/2 well water and 1/2 r.o. water. I think the yeast may have been struggling from the purity of the r.o. water. At least I'm hoping this is it. Does this sound like it makes the most sense?

 

[unionrdr]

The purity of the water won't mess up the yeast. Well water might be a different story. And we generally call it trub,not lees.

 

[Yooper]

That's pretty high for alkalinity so you must have added chalk or something. The magnesium is too high as well.

Use 100% RO water for the next batch, using only 5 grams of calcium chloride. Do NOT add epsom salts or baking soda or chalk. That should help a lot. The yeast will do fine with that. "Purity" of RO water is a good thing, but the yeast can use a little calcium. You get plenty of magnesium from malt, and it can give a slight sour taste when you add it to the water, so I wouldn't do that.

In addition, start the fermentations at a lower temperature like 62-64 for ales. Pitch the proper amount of yeast by consulting a yeast calculator. Always keep it under 70, but you can let it rise to 68 by day 7. Hold it at 68 for another week, then bottle it. That should minimize yeast stress and take another variable out of the equation here.

 

[Merleti]

Yooper I was following Beer Smith recommended additions. I added 4g gypsum, 3g table salt, 1.5 epsom salts, 1g calcium chloride and 4g chalk. The mag maybe lower as my test kit is in 20ppm incrementrs. I go with 5 g of calcium chloride and will also try some lower starting temps for the yeast. For my yeast starter I use one vial of White labs and split it between 1500 mL DME and two stir plates (750 mL ea) for two days. Then add it to the wort.
uniondr Trub noted.
Thank you all again for your help.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper I was following Beer Smith recommended additions. I added 4g gypsum, 3g table salt, 1.5 epsom salts, 1g calcium chloride and 4g chalk. The mag maybe lower as my test kit is in 20ppm incrementrs.

Don't do that anymore! There are a lot of reasons to never add chalk, but the basic one is that it doesn't work anyway, without extraneous measures.

If you don't have a pH meter to check the mash pH, I would suggest never adding anything except per the water primer. You probably still have a too-high mash pH, even with RO water if you're not adding acid.

I really think you'd enjoy the water information that mabrungard has on his bru'n water spreadsheet- lots of great information that really helps understand water and why chalk is not appropriate.

I think we have a couple of reasons for off flavors- one may be a too high pitching/fermentation temperature, and the other is water make up.

 

[Merleti]

Yooper the pH of the water was 6.9 before I added the grains. I then tested the pH after the grains were in for one hour with a basic pool strip. 6.8 is the lowest value on the chart at a light orange. The color came out yellow. I know we do not have an exact value, but do you think the pH is still to high? I will look at mabrungards spreadsheet and apply it to my next batch.
For my fermentation temp I followed Beer Smith. I will adjust the temp lower on the next batch.

 

[unionrdr]

Ideally,5.2 would be better as I understand it.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper the pH of the water was 6.9 before I added the grains. I then tested the pH after the grains were in for one hour with a basic pool strip. 6.8 is the lowest value on the chart at a light orange. The color came out yellow. I know we do not have an exact value, but do you think the pH is still to high? I will look at mabrungards spreadsheet and apply it to my next batch.
For my fermentation temp I followed Beer Smith. I will adjust the temp lower on the next batch.

Your strip is wrong. No way that the water pH was 6.9 and then only dropped to 6.8.

Without a meter, it's a guess at best but I would NOT make any additions without knowing full well why they are being added and what they would do to the mash pH. You're better off with 100% RO water with NO additions than adding things like chalk!

 

[Merleti]

Maybe I explaining this wrong.
Water from the start-pH 6.9
The test kits lowest value is 6.8. The color is orange.
1 hour after the grains were added the color strip tested yellow. This would show it is way under 6.8. If I followed the color chart according to the shade changes yellow would be in the 5's. I know this is not 100% accurate, but it is better then guessing.
I will not use chalk in the future.
When you are a newbie. Read that you need to add these elements. Follow the recommendations of Beer Smith and Palmers How to Brew. You think you know why you should add them. I didn't realize these were outdated.

 

[tweers]

Would adding Irish Moss 10 mins left in the boil help in this case?

 

[unionrdr]

I use Fivestar super moss 1/4tsp @ 10 minutes left. It clears it up pretty good.

 

[Merleti]

I use whirfloc 1/2 tab on the last 15 minutes of boil.
From what I gather no one seems to notice one major thing that I'm doing wrong. However there are somethings that are off a little. I think this maybe a case were all of them are adding up to one big wrong. I guess I just need to get these straighten out and see how it goes then. Thank you all again for your help.

 

[Merleti]

Good news the Belgium I started just before this talk turned out great. The things I did different were the addition of yeast nutrients and trying to reduce the trub when transfering the wort to the the fermentation vessel with strainers.

 

[Setesh]

That's great to hear! I've been experimenting with leaving as much as possible of the trub behind for the last few batches of beer. I always whirlpooled but only waited about 5 minutes for the largest chunks to settle. Lately I've been letting it stand for 20 minutes. It certainly looks better when you have a carboy of clear beer, but I'm not sure I'll be able to tell a difference between leaving 'most' and 'as much as possible' of the trub behind.

 

[unionrdr]

Between whirlpooling & straining,I get about 3/8" of trub by bottling day. More clear beer for me to bottle up!