Ideas on recent 57% efficiency

[pretzelb]

I see a similar thread here which gave me some ideas but I wanted to start my own. Today I finally got to brew again and did a 5g batch of a Wheat Wine. It appears my mash was only 57% and I'm wondering what might be the cause or what is most likely the cause. I have another big beer planned next week so I hope to maybe apply some changes for the next batch. Here are my thoughts on the issue:

1. This recipe had 13 out of 20.5 lbs of white wheat malt. I'm reading that maybe I should have double crushed that. So the wheat could be one problem. Next time I have a wheat beer maybe I should double crush as a general rule.
2. My mill is set to .038" and since I don't recirculate anymore I could double crush just as normal routine. My 3 roller monster mill will get stuck sometimes so I don't think narrowing the gap is an option. But double crush should be pretty easy I've just never tried it.
3. My rig is electric and has a false bottom to protect the bag. The 20g kettle has probably 4g under the false bottom that the grains never see. So when I mashed in with 8.95 gallons it was more like 4.95 gallons with 20.5 lbs of grain. That puts the mash really thick. My other idea is when doing high gravity 5g batches, do a 90 minute boil just to get the extra water for the mash.
4. I do have a ph meter but I've been not using it lately so another idea is to make sure the ph isn't out of control. But I never had issues so I left that step out just to make things more enjoyable.

My next beer is a barleywine so the wheat won't be an issue. But I'm thinking I should at least factor in a 90 minute boil so I can get my mash thickness up. I could also factor in a 90 minute mash but I'd hate to add another hour just for a high gravity 5g beer.

 

[doug293cz]

If you are not recirculating, ditch the false bottom, and don't try to heat during the mash. Just insulate, and accept a few degrees temp loss over the duration of the mash.

The water/wort under the FB only picks up sugar by diffusion from the grain mass above, if you don't recirc. Thus it will have a lower SG than the wort up in the grain mass. When you lift the bag to drain, your most concentrated wort will be with the grain, and the wort retained by the grain will be the highest SG wort. This will reduce your lauter efficiency, and thus the mash efficiency.

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

1. This recipe had 13 out of 20.5 lbs of white wheat malt. I'm reading that maybe I should have double crushed that. So the wheat could be one problem. Next time I have a wheat beer maybe I should double crush as a general rule.
2. My mill is set to .038" and since I don't recirculate anymore I could double crush just as normal routine. My 3 roller monster mill will get stuck sometimes so I don't think narrowing the gap is an option. But double crush should be pretty easy I've just never tried it.

Wheat is smaller and harder than barley. Your mill setting is too wide to efficiently crush wheat malt. A double crush would help but it still isn't ideal. If you intend to make a lot of beers with wheat as a part of the grain bill, do yourself a favor and get a Corona style mill for the wheat. It can turn that wheat into near flour which then raises the efficiency and reduces the time needed for conversion. The Corona style mills are cheap enough that only a few batches will pay you back for them.

 

[myndflyte]

Double crush will help. Also since you are using a bag, just tighten your mill as much as you can then double crush. No need to worry about stuck mashes with a bag.

 

[pretzelb]

If you are not recirculating, ditch the false bottom, and don't try to heat during the mash. Just insulate, and accept a few degrees temp loss over the duration of the mash.

I thought about that too. I decided against recirc to make things easier but if I also give up on the heating aspect it seems like a big waste of money I spent to get this equipment with features I'm not using. I would be slightly concerned about the element having some leftover heat on the bag but that is just silly on my part. I might try this though. Since I do have a pulley I was also thinking of partially lifting the bag at 30 minutes to add heat if needed.

 

[pretzelb]

If you intend to make a lot of beers with wheat as a part of the grain bill, do yourself a favor and get a Corona style mill for the wheat. It can turn that wheat into near flour which then raises the efficiency and reduces the time needed for conversion. The Corona style mills are cheap enough that only a few batches will pay you back for them.

Actually I still have my old mill that I was going to donate so someone next time I go to an event. I could try resetting that just for wheat and hoping it would not jam either. I don't brew with wheat often so I keep forgetting that it needs special attention even when I take notes about it. I will look at a Corona as an option too.

 

[pretzelb]

Double crush will help. Also since you are using a bag, just tighten your mill as much as you can then double crush. No need to worry about stuck mashes with a bag.

Once I started to try going with no recirc I considered a double crush. I could try to narrow the gap but I'm having issues with the rollers getting stuck now so I assume going narrower would be worse. I need to reach out to Monster Mill and ask them what I'm doing wrong. I think I do a good job at keeping that clean so I can't understand how it gets jammed when I'm lucky if I brew every 2 weeks.

 

[myndflyte]

Once I started to try going with no recirc I considered a double crush. I could try to narrow the gap but I'm having issues with the rollers getting stuck now so I assume going narrower would be worse. I need to reach out to Monster Mill and ask them what I'm doing wrong. I think I do a good job at keeping that clean so I can't understand how it gets jammed when I'm lucky if I brew every 2 weeks.

Well I guess get it as tight as you can without it jamming up but I'd run it through twice for sure. Maybe you can tighten it after the first pass if you wanted.

 

[doug293cz]

Is the mill jamming (driven roller not turning) or are the non-driven rollers just not grabbing the grain? If it's a true jam, then you probably need a higher torque drill/motor. If non-driven rollers are not grabbing, then your knurling may be worn. Sometimes feeding the grain into the mill slowly (don't fill the hopper) helps with this issue.

Brew on

 

[beernutz]

The brewers friend efficiency calculator predicts a 1.091 OG for 13 lbs white wheat and 7.5 lbs pale ale malt with 57% efficiency. Is that close to the OG you measured?

How long did you mash? I've found an additional 15 to 30 minutes of mashing over the standard 60 improves my efficiency.

I also think removing the false bottom and just insulating the mash rather than heat/recirculate will help in addition to a using a finer crush.

 

[pretzelb]

Is the mill jamming (driven roller not turning) or are the non-driven rollers just not grabbing the grain? If it's a true jam, then you probably need a higher torque drill/motor. If non-driven rollers are not grabbing, then your knurling may be worn. Sometimes feeding the grain into the mill slowly (don't fill the hopper) helps with this issue.

Brew on

The driven roller turns just fine. I went overboard on the drill and got a pretty strong one. The non-driven rollers are getting stuck. I did a tear down and deep clean a few months ago but chickened out altering the gap thinking I'd keep that variable the same for now. It did stop on me again yesterday at the start but then ran fine for the entire 20 lbs after I nudged it. I could try lesser grains at a time. I paid for the extra big hopper so I do fill that thing up.

 

[pretzelb]

The brewers friend efficiency calculator predicts a 1.091 OG for 13 lbs white wheat and 7.5 lbs pale ale malt with 57% efficiency. Is that close to the OG you measured?

How long did you mash? I've found an additional 15 to 30 minutes of mashing over the standard 60 improves my efficiency.

I also think removing the false bottom and just insulating the mash rather than heat/recirculate will help in addition to a using a finer crush.

Brewers Friend gave you 1.091? I'm showing 1.060 and 1.086 with 57% using 13 lbs white wheat, 6.5 2 row, and 1 lb crystal 40 with 7.49 gallons pre boil and 5.25 into fermenter. I recorded 1.062 pre boil and 1.077 OG. I was playing with several calculators yesterday and most seem to agree with 57% so I stuck with it.

I have tried 90 mash in the past and maybe I will do that again.

I may go with no false bottom next week. It's one variable I haven't tried.

 

[beernutz]

 

[doug293cz]

View attachment 681078

I believe OP's 57% efficiency was mash efficiency, and the BrewersFriend calculation above is BrewHouse efficiency. OP's post-boil volume was 6.03 gal (calculated from 7.49 gal pre-boil volume, 1.062 pre-boil SG, and 1.077 OG.) This makes OP's Brewhouse efficiency = 57% * 5.25 gal / 6.03 gal = 49 - 50%.

Plus, you used a 5.0 gal fermenter volume rather than the actual 5.25, which will also inflate your calculated OG.

Brew on

 

[madscientist451]

Lately, I've been super busy and to save time, I've been doing overnight BIAB mashes and then boiling first thing in the morning and getting super high efficiency.
Also, your kettle is set up with a spigot near the bottom for re-circulation?
You could draw off a gallon or so at a time of the dead space water and just dump it in the top every 20 minutes or so.
Somewhat low tech, but it would probably help.

 

[beernutz]

I believe OP's 57% efficiency wash mash efficiency, and the BrewersFriend calculation above is BrewHouse efficiency. OP's post-boil volume was 6.03 gal (calculated from 7.49 gal pre-boil volume, 1.062 pre-boil SG, and 1.077 OG.) This makes OP's Brewhouse efficiency = 57% * 5.25 gal / 6.03 gal = 49 - 50%.

Plus, you used a 5.0 gal fermenter volume rather than the actual 5.25, which will also inflate your calculated OG.

Brew on

You're right I screwed that up royally.

If you BIAB and don't lauter, would Brewhouse and mash/conversion efficiencies be the same?

 

[doug293cz]

You're right I screwed that up royally.

If you BIAB and don't lauter, would Brewhouse and mash/conversion efficiencies be the same?

Everyone lauters. Lautering is just separating the wort from the grain. Sparging is rinsing the (partially) lautered grain with fresh water, and then lautering again. With fly sparging, you lauter a little bit, and then add some sparge water, lauter a little bit more, etc. Many BIABers skip the sparge after lautering.

Brewhouse efficiency is always less than or equal to mash efficiency. If you dump everything from the BK into the fermenter, then they are equal. Otherwise:

Brewhouse Efficiency = MashEfficiency * Volume in Fermenter / Post-Boil Volume​

Brew on

 

[pretzelb]

Lately, I've been super busy and to save time, I've been doing overnight BIAB mashes and then boiling first thing in the morning and getting super high efficiency.
Also, your kettle is set up with a spigot near the bottom for re-circulation?
You could draw off a gallon or so at a time of the dead space water and just dump it in the top every 20 minutes or so.
Somewhat low tech, but it would probably help.

My kettle is set up for recirc but I stopped doing it because I got annoyed with keeping an eye on the water level. My original setup had a solid basket but I switched to a bag and a false bottom to keep the bag off the electric heater. The level would drop unless I really throttled back the flow. I'm not entirely sure if the level was due to the bag blocking the site tube or if wort was really getting starved from the bottom. Seems odd that a bag could restrict the flow that much but I didn't want to risk it.

But you bring up a decent idea. If I kept the false bottom I could recirc every so often by turning the pump and and off. That could help with the efficiency.

 

[ehall]

just out of curiosity, what system do you have? I got a brew boss last year and have been struggling ever since to figure out low efficiency numbers almost every time.

 

[RM-MN]

But you bring up a decent idea. If I kept the false bottom I could recirc every so often by turning the pump and and off. That could help with the efficiency.

You could recirculate a bit without the pump by using a big spoon or mash paddle. Then it wouldn't matter if you didn't have the false bottom and would have more of the water mixed in the grain.

I don't stir my mash and I don't recirculate. I also don't do a long mash. 20 to 30 minutes will get me in the 80% brewhouse efficiency with no sparge. Add sparging and I'll be up into the 90% plus.

 

[pretzelb]

just out of curiosity, what system do you have? I got a brew boss last year and have been struggling ever since to figure out low efficiency numbers almost every time.

I have an old (2016?) nano brew system from Colorado Brewing. 20g kettle with electric panel and a stand with a pulley. Mine doesn't look like this at all but it does give you the basic idea. current 20g nano brew system

 

[madscientist451]

My kettle is set up for recirc but I stopped doing it because I got annoyed with keeping an eye on the water level.

I've looked at Colorado Brewing Systems and thought they looked pretty good. (but I didn't buy one, for a variety of reasons)
If the water level would get low, couldn't you just use more water?
Did you bring up that issue with CBS?

 

[pretzelb]

I've looked at Colorado Brewing Systems and thought they looked pretty good. (but I didn't buy one, for a variety of reasons)
If the water level would get low, couldn't you just use more water?
Did you bring up that issue with CBS?

Adding more water won't solve the issue of the wort not circulating fast enough. Early on I had issues where the bottom was dry and the heating element would scorch as a result. I switched from the basket they provide to a false bottom and bag in hopes of never having the issue but it seems like even a bag can restrict the flow significantly.

I've enjoyed the system overall but if I were buying now I'd look at the SS Brewtech option. From what I've read their heating element works differently and allows you to put the bag right on the element without it burning the bag. But I would then need to create my own stand with a pulley.

 

[RM-MN]

Adding more water won't solve the issue of the wort not circulating fast enough. Early on I had issues where the bottom was dry and the heating element would scorch as a result. I switched from the basket they provide to a false bottom and bag in hopes of never having the issue but it seems like even a bag can restrict the flow significantly.

I've enjoyed the system overall but if I were buying now I'd look at the SS Brewtech option. From what I've read their heating element works differently and allows you to put the bag right on the element without it burning the bag. But I would then need to create my own stand with a pulley.

If your grain is milled sufficiently fine its starches will be converted fast enough that adding heat during the mash is not needed so you can avoid any chance of burning the bag.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Adding more water won't solve the issue of the wort not circulating fast enough. Early on I had issues where the bottom was dry and the heating element would scorch as a result. I switched from the basket they provide to a false bottom and bag in hopes of never having the issue but it seems like even a bag can restrict the flow significantly.

I've enjoyed the system overall but if I were buying now I'd look at the SS Brewtech option. From what I've read their heating element works differently and allows you to put the bag right on the element without it burning the bag. But I would then need to create my own stand with a pulley.

OK, I don't have a ton of experience with recirculating eBIAB, but I am using it now. I have done a ton of reading and a recurring solution to the problem of the recirculated wort not draining quickly enough is to take the following steps:

1) Don't mill too fine. It sounds like you already have a reasonable gap, but many were actually improving their conversion efficiency by increasing to over .040 and as high as .045 because they were able to recirculate faster (this from the Brew boss thread). You still need to mill separately and go finer with wheat. I'd strongly suggest rice hulls if you have a lot of wheat.
2) Don't start recirculating right away. Dough in, stir and let it settle for about 10 mins before you start recirculation.
3) Throttle down the recirculation rate at first, then slowly increase it over the first 5 minutes of recirculation.
4) As a final step, if the above 3 don't work, condition your grain before milling.

I've followed the first 3 (milling about the same as you are) and have not had any issues recirculating so far. For number 3, I start very slow (barely more than a trickle. At the end of 5 minutes, I'm flowing pretty damn fast. My last brew had about 7% wheat and I had no issues. Efficiency was between 70 and 75% (I don't lock in a hard number because my volume measurements are estimated between 1G markings).

There are a bunch of people who recirculate during the mash (eBIAB, HERMS, RIMS, K-RIMS are all systems that incorporate recirculation). There's no reason you need to abandon it, just read up and try a few things).

All that being said, if you are not doing step mashes, there's very little reason to recirculation. Holding ultra precise mash temps is not really necessary. Pick a temp, dough in to be a degree or two above, insulate and leave it alone.

 

[pretzelb]

Update - Brewed a barley wine yesterday with some better results. I stuck with the false bottom and 60 minute boil but used my pump to recirc. The grain bill was less and there wasn't any wheat so it's not a fair comparison. With 17.25 lbs of grain I had pre boil volume of 7.09 with an pre boil gravity of 1.057 which Brewers Friend calls 65.9% while my spreadsheet has 67.2%. So at face value the recirc was a big help which makes sense now that I think about it. Could I have done that with a wheatwine without rice hulls? Maybe.

I think next I might try and double IPA that has 17.75 lbs of grain but a 90 min boil. It will be interesting to see if that boosts the numbers since it will be a thinner mash above the false bottom. I've ordered a new bag to fit my kettle without the false bottom but I'm not sure if I want to try a brew without my heating element being used during the mash as I've never configured this kettle for heat retention.