IBU accuracy in Brewer Friend

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

I have used brewers friend to develop my recipes ever since I started brewing. I am starting to think that either the calculations for IBUs are off, or I am having a problem with hop utilization. My last brew, a German pils, should have an IBU of 36 according to brewers friend, but there is almost no hop bitterness. I was quite shocked when I first tasted it. It’s got a really nice clean, “bright” malt character, and I can pick up the pepperiness of the tettnanger hops, but it’s not bitter like I expected. I have had some commercial pils beer that was less than 36 IBUs that tastes more bitter than mine. Has anyone else had this issue? Here is my recipe, in case someone may notice if it’s an issue on my end.

5 gallon batch
9.5# german pils malt
2 oz melanoidon

Mashed at 140 for 20 minutes, 150 for 30 minutes, 155 for 10 minutes, and 168 for 10 minutes.

90 minute boil

1.2 oz hallertau hersbrucker @ 60 min
.6 oz hallertau hersbrucker @ 30 min
.75 tettnanger @ 15 min
.75 tettnanger @ 5 min

Fermented with wyeast 2124 bohemian lager yeast

Thanks for any help y’all can give me. This is my first “light” beer to brew as I normally do bocks, dopplebocks, stouts, and porters. Maybe that’s my problem, I’m used to beers with lots of flavors, and this one comes across as flavorless.

 

[jheinikel]

What was your water profile and did you add anything to balance it? Typically, water makes a world of difference in perceived hoppiness.

 

[Blackdirt_cowboy]

What was your water profile and did you add anything to balance it? Typically, water makes a world of difference in perceived hoppiness.

Good point. I started with RO water and made additions according to bru’n water. My final water profile is as follows:

Calcium 47 ppm
Magnesium 5 ppm
Sodium 17 ppm
Sulfate 75 ppm
Chloride 34 ppm

I used the Jever water profile in bru’n water. I went back and forth between that and the yellow dry and settled on Jever after a quick google search.

 

[Smellyglove]

I'm having the same in Beersmith. I usually overshoot my calculated IBUs by 5-7 IBU. Lageringtime, if you do that, strips out IBUs. You need to account for that.

But water and a lot of other stuff also has a finger in it.

 

[d3track]

give this a look
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/writeups/ibu-lie-kind

plus a couple points:
1) are you adjusting your AA in your software when building the recipe?
2) @Smellyglove - how are you getting that you are overshooting by 5-7 IBUs? Do you have access to the lab equipment? Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

 

[Smellyglove]

give this a look
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/writeups/ibu-lie-kind

plus a couple points:
1) are you adjusting your AA in your software when building the recipe?
2) @Smellyglove - how are you getting that you are overshooting by 5-7 IBUs? Do you have access to the lab equipment? Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

What I meant was that If I'm calculating x IBU's, I'll add 5-7 IBUs in the software when doing lagers. I don't actually know the IBU's, but comparing to beers which doesn't sit cold (lagering) I overshoot the calculated IBUs in the software to hit what I'm aiming for.

 

[Oginme]

First, I second reading/listening to the Experimental Brewing information on their experiments with IBU as well as the follow-up interview with Glenn Tinseth on how he developed the model.

I've always taken the position that any IBU calculation model is extremely accurate for the person who developed it on their own equipment and following their specific process. For the rest of us it is basically a SWAG [Scientific Wild-A$$ed Guess]. I've worked previously in process modeling in the paper industry and know just how specific a model can be to the particular process with which you are modeling.

I was given the advice early on of brewing a pale ale (preferably a clone) and then buying that brew or something of similar style and IBU content to do a side-by-side testing. Nothing beats the sensory aspect of defining bitterness. For me, I was a little too low in perceived bitterness, so now I aim higher (about 10 points seemed to do it for me). Later, I changed my process (bought a chiller, stared adjusting my water) and had to do it all over again. I also repeated this analysis with several other styles just to confirm to my senses that I was targeting my recipes correctly across a broader spectrum.

 

[madscientist451]

IBU is just a number. The software gets you in the ballpark, but you have to do some re brews and add more or less hops to suit your taste and dial in what you are looking for.

 

[The_Bishop]

I'm having the same in Beersmith. I usually overshoot my calculated IBUs by 5-7 IBU. Lageringtime, if you do that, strips out IBUs. You need to account for that.

But water and a lot of other stuff also has a finger in it.

Do you have a source for the 'lagering strips bitterness' claim?

 

[Smellyglove]

Do you have a source for the 'lagering strips bitterness' claim?

I could have written "aging", instead of lagering.

 

[stieg000]

Speaking of experimental brewing podcast, they did a follow up with brewers that participated in their experiment to try and pin down their ibu targets as calculated by beersmith vs a tested sample of the beer by a lab. They found a correlation between chill times and IBU. The brew systems that chilled very fast tended to undershoot and those that took a really long time tended to overshoot. Just keep this in mind and and adjust the hops based on tasting the final beer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

The age of the hops are your likely problem. I shop at a LHBS that doesn't have good turn over on their hops. Not to mention they refuse to refrigerate them. Ticks me off something fierce. I've told them every time I come in to buy hops. I tend to over hop by 30% since the rated AA is not correct.

I HATE buying ingredients online, so it's really my fault. I'm not entering beers into competition so it's not a problem if I over shoot or fall short slightly

There's a degradation curve for alpha acid in hops. Promash used to have this feature I think to track the drop of alpha acid.

Check this article out...

http://beerandwinejournal.com/alpha-loss-1/

http://beerandwinejournal.com/hop-loss-2/

http://beerandwinejournal.com/alpha-loss-3/

I think there's a date calculator to compensate for this. I need to find and start using it myself. The hop package should have a born in date.

[Edit] Here it is...

Hop AA Adjustment Calculator

 

[Schlenkerla]

I could have written "aging", instead of lagering.

I'm having the same in Beersmith. I usually overshoot my calculated IBUs by 5-7 IBU. Lageringtime, if you do that, strips out IBUs. You need to account for that.

But water and a lot of other stuff also has a finger in it.

What I meant was that If I'm calculating x IBU's, I'll add 5-7 IBUs in the software when doing lagers. I don't actually know the IBU's, but comparing to beers which doesn't sit cold (lagering) I overshoot the calculated IBUs in the software to hit what I'm aiming for.

I have been brewing for more than a decade. I have never had or heard somebody claim hop bitterness fades with lagering or time aging. I don't thinks its possible. Its locked in from isomerization, which is the application of heat to the hops and wort. It chemically bonds to the other elements in the wort.

What you are describing sounds like flavor/aroma that comes from late additions. The fresh hop flavor/aroma does dissipate, however bitterness will not.

One should consider dates hops are packaged, bought, and how they are stored, be that at the LHBS or at home.

Check out the calculator above.

See this too; https://hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/BBD_08-16.pdf

 

[Smellyglove]

The age of the hops are your likely problem. I shop at a LHBS that doesn't have good turn over on their hops. Not to mention they refuse to refrigerate them. Ticks me off something fierce. I've told them every time I come in to buy hops. I tend to over hop by 30% since the rated AA is not correct.

I HATE buying ingredients online, so it's really my fault. I'm not entering beers into competition so it's not a problem if I over shoot or fall short slightly

There's a degradation curve for alpha acid in hops. Promash used to have this feature I think to track the drop of alpha acid.

Check this article out...

http://beerandwinejournal.com/alpha-loss-1/

I think there's a date calculator to compensate for this. I need to find and start using it myself. The hop package should have a born in date.

Hop AA Adjustment Calculator

I'd start buying hops online, and tell them why when they ask if "don't you need any hops for this?" I work at a HBS, they didn't refrigerate before I started, the first ting I asked them to (actually demanded) was to get freezers. I used some hops from pre-freezer-time, and ended up buying from another shop until freezers came in.

It's not just te alpha, but overall. Storing hops in a non-refridgerated environment takes it's toll. Would you store a beef at room temperature?

 

[Smellyglove]

I have been brewing for more than a decade. I have never had or heard somebody claim hop bitterness fades with lagering or time aging. I don't thinks its possible. Its locked in from isomerization, which is the application of heat to the hops and wort. It chemically bonds to the other elements in the wort.

What you are describing sounds like flavor/aroma that comes from late additions. The fresh hop flavor/aroma does dissipate, however bitterness will not.

Like my posts above you should consider dates hops are packaged, bought, and how they are stored, be that at the LHBS or at home.

Check out the calculator above.

See this too; https://hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/BBD_08-16.pdf

I believe perceived bitterness is one of the things most people agree on actually fades over time.

Your link is about fresh hops, not hops that has been trough a boil and is in the and are "done".

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'd start buying hops online, and tell them why when they ask if "don't you need any hops for this?" I work at a HBS, they didn't refrigerate before I started, the first ting I asked them to (actually demanded) was to get freezers. I used some hops from pre-freezer-time, and ended up buying from another shop until freezers came in.

It's not just te alpha, but overall. Storing hops in a non-refridgerated environment takes it's toll. Would you store a beef at room temperature?

The new store manager said they ordered freezers for the hops, so that's an improvement. The place is a liquor store and home brew shop. Previous managers didn't care. While this guy isn't a home brewer, he drinks at the same microbrewery as I do. He's heard the complaints such that to make management pony up for freezers.

 

[ancientmariner52]

The new store manager said they ordered freezers for the hops, so that's an improvement. The place is a liquor store and home brew shop. Previous managers didn't care. While this guy isn't a home brewer, he drinks at the same microbrewery as I do. He's heard the complaints such that to make management pony up for freezers.

Looks like an opportunity to make a convert!

 

[Schlenkerla]

I believe perceived bitterness is one of the things most people agree on actually fades over time.

Your link is about fresh hops, not hops that has been trough a boil and is in the and are "done".

Per my original post is it's most likely that the hops are NOT at the rated AA% because they are old. That's going to be more significant to the overall bitterness than lagering or time in a keg.

I'm thinking as the OP was thinking after the beer is carbonated, "Why is the bitterness not there?". It's the hops age and storage to blame if everything else was done correctly.

It's aroma and flavor that fades not bitterness. If you think perceived bitterness is flavor and aroma then I'd agree. It goes to what really adds to aroma and flavor, it's the late additions. Think of the quality of those hops used in those additions.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Would you store a beef at room temperature?

Yes, I always buy my beef "jerky" at room temp.

Good point.

It's been hit or miss on hop quality. Popular varieties are usually in better shape.

As I stated earlier, I need to check this when I buy, create a recipe and brew.