I want my cake and eat it too

[ozarks42]

Brewing with limited temperature control over fermentation.

I would like to start brewing more than ales and brew Pilsners and maybe an Oktoberfest, but I’m limited in being able to control fermentation temperatures. The room I use to brew in is 10x20 with window air-conditioning. I have heard or read where people have said to go for it and not worry about the lower fermentation, it will work out.

How is the finial taste of a brew affected by fermentation temperature when it comes to Pilsners and Oktoberfest’s?

 

[JustLooking]

Fermentation temperature is everything in a true lager. It will be a steam beer, not the style you intend.

 

[balrog]

There are a couple of recipes for Oktoberfest-style ales (here and here)which can be done at ale fermentation temps; you could try that.

 

[mdindy]

I always recommend white labs 029, as lager like as you can possibly get while staying at ale temps.

 

[m00ps]

check out this article on brulosophy. He did a side by side fermentation at 72F and 58F with wlp029 with NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE detectable by blind taste test participants

http://brulosophy.com/2015/01/19/fermentation-temperature-pt-1-exbeeriment-results/

 

[ozarks42]

I always recommend white labs 029, as lager like as you can possibly get while staying at ale temps.

Could I use White Labs 029 with any Oktoberfest recipe I find or are there specific items i need to look for in the recipe that work best with this yeast?

 

[mdindy]

I have personally made both pilsner and Oktoberfest recipes with this yeast that both came out perfect, I now swear by this yeast.

 

[BrotherBock]

check out this article on brulosophy. He did a side by side fermentation at 72F and 58F with wlp029 with NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE detectable by blind taste test participants

http://brulosophy.com/2015/01/19/fermentation-temperature-pt-1-exbeeriment-results/

Obviously this is anecdotal, but I had two Kolschs with Wyeast 1007 (not the same, but a similiar strain). One fermented at 56-60 and the other was at 68-72. There were VERY, VERY, VERY obvious differences. The warmer one was not at all lager like and was full of esters that made it almost nothing like a kolsch. Meanwhile, as conventional wisdom would suggest, the other was much more neutral and lager-like.

While brulosopher has some good exBeeriments, take them with a grain of salt. They are only done once and have not had the benefit of recreating the experiment multiple times. I also imagine the simplicity of a kosch helped make the differences more apparent. There was nothing for the yeast character to hide behind.

Regardless, I would never in a million years ferment a kolsch style yeast at 70 and expect the same beer as one ferment <60

 

[ozarks42]

It would be interesting to hear what others have to say about White labs 029 yeast and what they have experienced.

 

[giraffe]

wlp029 is reasonably clean in the mid 60s, cleaner than 1007 which needs to be around 58-60. It needs a few weeks of cold conditioning in a keg near freezing to drop clear. (or gelatin). It makes a great kolsch, and is probably the most neutral of the ale yeasts. Its not as lagery as the beers I made with an actual lager yeast (but when ive used it that hasnt been my intention, it was to make a kolsch). That said, out of the ales yeasts its your best choice.

The attenuation on wlp029 is usually in the high 70s for me. If you are making a particular malty southern german style (bock, dunkel, etc) you may want to up the mash temp two degrees F. It also really accentuates the finishing hops, so use a light hand with late additions in styles its not appropriate for.

 

[h0psnobery]

You could try the low-tech layering system by basic brewing radio. All you need are two garbage cans, a pump, and temperature controller. There's at least one thread on here about it.

 

[gometz]

check out this article on brulosophy. He did a side by side fermentation at 72F and 58F with wlp029 with NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE detectable by blind taste test participants

http://brulosophy.com/2015/01/19/fermentation-temperature-pt-1-exbeeriment-results/

Two big things I would note there:
1. He used a dark beer where fermentation flaws are easier to hide than they would be in a light Kolsch.
2. The 23 testers he used does not include the hosts, so we can safely assume that they are casual beer drinkers. Had he given this test to BJCP certified judges the results may have been much different.

It is a good test, but I would be careful saying it with certainty that there will be no detectable difference (40% were able to detect a difference).

Another thing I want to point out: go ahead and not worry too much about the details if you only want to make alright beer. If you want to make great beer, then the devil is in the details. I personally get angry with myself when a recipe doesn't turn out right because I decided to take a short cut. That's just me though, there are definitely people who just want to make good beer, not striving to make the best beer they can.

 

[m00ps]

yeah not a super scientific or controlled experiment, but its not like non-BJCP certified people have any less ability to taste things. I mean it definitely says something that there werent a lot of significant findings from the experiment. I figured if the OP is looking to do pilsners and the like without temperature control, he isnt concerned about making a world class pilsner in the first place

 

[ozarks42]

yeah not a super scientific or controlled experiment, but its not like non-BJCP certified people have any less ability to taste things. I mean it definitely says something that there werent a lot of significant findings from the experiment. I figured if the OP is looking to do pilsners and the like without temperature control, he isnt concerned about making a world class pilsner in the first place

I'm curious now, what constitutes a "world class Pilsner" or "the best beer they can make" I realize there are guidelines such as with BJCP, but as I'm sitting here thinking about it, I 'm going to say that the brew you drink and go "damn, that's a good beer" is "world class".

 

[ba-brewer]

I have used wyeast 2112 california lager yeast to produce several blondes and a dortmunder which came out OK. It clears better than kolsch yeast.

 

[ChelisHubby]

Brewing with limited temperature control over fermentation.

I would like to start brewing more than ales and brew Pilsners and maybe an Oktoberfest, but I’m limited in being able to control fermentation temperatures. The room I use to brew in is 10x20 with window air-conditioning. I have heard or read where people have said to go for it and not worry about the lower fermentation, it will work out.

How is the finial taste of a brew affected by fermentation temperature when it comes to Pilsners and Oktoberfest’s?

I would wait until the tempature moderates like october or so. that said I would try to do a octoberfest beer with ale yeast soon so it is ready on time.

 

[gometz]

I'm curious now, what constitutes a "world class Pilsner" or "the best beer they can make" I realize there are guidelines such as with BJCP, but as I'm sitting here thinking about it, I 'm going to say that the brew you drink and go "damn, that's a good beer" is "world class".

For a pilsner, something you can put next to Urquell or Budvar and say you got close.

 

[JustLooking]

I'm curious now, what constitutes a "world class Pilsner" or "the best beer they can make" I realize there are guidelines such as with BJCP, but as I'm sitting here thinking about it, I 'm going to say that the brew you drink and go "damn, that's a good beer" is "world class".

It shouldn't take a BJCP judge to tell the difference between a damn good beer brewed at ale temperature and a properly brewed lager.

How is the finial taste of a brew affected by fermentation temperature when it comes to Pilsners and Oktoberfest’s?

The methods mentioned here will make a good beer that's close, but you'll never get the same clean, crisp character without proper fermentation temperatures and a lager yeast.

 

[ozarks42]

Thank you all for your replies to my questions. I got into brewing beer less than a year ago, so I'm sure some of my questions on here seem pretty simple or silly. The one thing I am finding out is brewing at home can be as complicated, technical or as scientific as a person wants to make it. I am looking to keep it simple but at the same time brew a clean, crisp in character beer while maintaining style guidelines. A brew that when drank the person does go "Damn, that is a good beer"

:rockin:

 

[lowtones84]

Obviously this is anecdotal, but I had two Kolschs with Wyeast 1007 (not the same, but a similiar strain). One fermented at 56-60 and the other was at 68-72. There were VERY, VERY, VERY obvious differences. The warmer one was not at all lager like and was full of esters that made it almost nothing like a kolsch. Meanwhile, as conventional wisdom would suggest, the other was much more neutral and lager-like.

While I mostly agree with what you're saying here, wlp029 and wy1007 are not the same yeast strain. Both Kolsch yeasts, yes, but both have different characteristics. Ideal range for wlp029 according to whitelabs is 65-69F, and my experience concurs with at least around the 66F range.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

It shouldn't take a BJCP judge to tell the difference between a damn good beer brewed at ale temperature and a properly brewed lager.

The methods mentioned here will make a good beer that's close, but you'll never get the same clean, crisp character without proper fermentation temperatures and a lager yeast.

Before you read anything else I say, I agree with everything you said, it's never going to be as good as a well made and fermented as a true lager.

Well on the other hand consider the audience you are brewing for. Beer nerds/snobs, BJCP judges, or sending the beer into competition... Yeah you might want to consider investing in temp control and brew with true lager yeast.

Brewing for yourself and "regular" beer drinkers, you can get close with steam beer yeasts and just try to ferment at the lower end of the yeasts temp. I have a honey bock that I used 1007 and fermented at the bottom of the yeasts recommended temp 55F. I know it's an ale and I would bet top level judges and tasters could tell its an ale or a lager fermented warm, but if I serve it to people do I call it "honey bock" or confuse them with "it's a German honey amber ale"? Not going for competition I just wanted a tasty beer with lots of Munich malt and honey but was crisp and malty like a lager.