I might use a gas burner inside. Is it safe?

[jleiii]

I might be missing something but every commercial kitchen I've been in uses multiple massive gas burners running full force for ten hours at a time.

Are we talking about some different kind of gas?

They have massive ventilation systems above the burner area.

 

[invivoSaccharomyces]

This appears to be a zombie thread, and the topic seems to have been beaten to death, but since you asked:

The burners in your commercial kitchens are designed for indoor use. The flow of propane and the intake of air is designed to be of the right ratio such that the propane is cleanly and fully burned. CO is produced from incomplete burning, which happens when the ratio of air to propane is either too high or too low.

http://www.propane101.com/carbonmonoxideandpropane.htm

 

[duboman]

I too did the same thing see post #27 http://https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/indoor-brewing-options-444073/index3.html

 

[Rhumbline]

They have massive ventilation systems above the burner area.

But they really don't.

The huge hoods you see above the stoves are Ansul systems for fire suppression. Yes, they can also serve to vent the smoke and fumes from the cookers. But they don't vent the carbon monoxide.

Go into your local Chinese take out place, odds are the vents won't be running. I just went to one this afternoon. The vent on the hood wasn't running, it was a small shop, and nobody died.

I ran a restaurant for a bit. Six gas burners plus two grills and two ovens all running full tilt on gas for a 14 hour shift.

Let's be clear here, we're talking about someone using one gas burner for one hour in a typical home with leaky door and window seals.

 

[DrunkleJon]

But they really don't.

The huge hoods you see above the stoves are Ansul systems for fire suppression. Yes, they can also serve to vent the smoke and fumes from the cookers. But they don't vent the carbon monoxide.

Go into your local Chinese take out place, odds are the vents won't be running. I just went to one this afternoon. The vent on the hood wasn't running, it was a small shop, and nobody died.

I ran a restaurant for a bit. Six gas burners plus two grills and two ovens all running full tilt on gas for a 14 hour shift.

Let's be clear here, we're talking about someone using one gas burner for one hour in a typical home with leaky door and window seals.

But is it really worth the gamble? If/When you look at the manual that comes with your outdoor burner, it says straight out to use it outside and not inside.

 

[Bierliebhaber]

But is it really worth the gamble? If/When you look at the manual that comes with your outdoor burner, it says straight out to use it outside and not inside.

Because common sense isn't as common as we'd like to think. If a certain percentage of these chaps can burn down their homes using it outside, I'm sure that increases significantly using it inside. That's more of an operator competence issue, though.

 

[johnnv]

If you look at the brewer TV episodes, There is a guy there with a single tier gas system in the basement with a commercial range hood, he bought for salvage for $100.00. No worries there. As said earlier, common sense first, and ask a professional, I am a retired HVAC/R engineer and see no issue with indoor gas brewing if done correctly. I am guessing the people panicking never had a gas range in their home.

To respond to another question, fossil fuel is all dangerous as far as CO, natural gas or LP, fire wood and fuel oil, makes no difference.

 

[DrunkleJon]

True. But CO is the silent killer. It is much like the story of boiling a frog where little by little you up the temperature of the water it is in and it never notices. CO is much the same way. Household equipment is rated on its output and other is vented (water heaters for example) when it surpasses a specific range. Burners are not rated this way, have exposed flame, and some of them are not the most stable. I still have no problem boiling in my garage with ventilation and nothing flammable anywhere within a radius where it could ignite, but I pay close attention to conditions around me.

All in all it really is not worth the risk of fire/suffocation. Even if you can get away with it for a little while, there is always the possibility that you could have that one oh-S! moment and the worst happen.

Then again this is just my 2 cents and we all know what people consider pennies to be worth nowadays.

 

[johnnv]

1st and foremost, if you have any fossil fuel burning equipment in your home, including central heat, stoves, water heaters, you should have more than one CO detector. Get the ones that plug in an outlet, CO is heavier than air. Specially put them in your bedroom, so you don't wake up dead.

 

[Rhumbline]

Make no mistake, if there was any chance that others might be endangered by my actions I'd be burning it in the back yard.

I don't encourage others to dance up to the edge of the cliff when their family's safety is concerned, but my point is that the threats voiced here might be overstated.

So, if you have family, neighbors, or even pets that might be put in harm's way, reconsider your actions. But go out for Chinese food and keep your eyes open.

 

[petey_c]

Elysium, What ever happened?

 

[jleiii]

You can buy flueless gas fireplaces for indoor use in a number of styles. Clearly open gas flames indoors is acceptable. I will note that some have CO detectors built in, but most do not. The high output type are catalytic burners (@25-30K btu), reducing the CO risk.
Common sense and properly operating equipment is the bottom line.
'nuf said from me.

Happy brewing to all by what ever means you are comfortable with.
John

 

[tagz]

you pass out due to CO poisoning, then the burner just keeps rolling until the liquid evaporates and the bottom of the kettle catches on fire, causing the entire building to burn down, with your passed out body still inside.

But it does solve his problem of brewing out in the cold.

 

[DocnSun]

Open a window leave the door ajar put a fan in the window. If the burner has a good blue flame you should be good! The time frame for a boil is not enough to fill a room with CO if your worried get a detector. Just make sure
Fresh air is entering the room!

 

[Elysium]

Elysium, What ever happened?

Nothing. It works like magic.

We got a "paella" burner which we hook up to the gas cylinder. Paella burners are used here with massive frying-pans to make Spanish rice dishes.

I should update the OG. I dont encourage anyone to do this.....but if you are extremely limited when it comes to space, then this might be the only solution.

 

[ajdelange]

I'd say the discussion of exhaust hoods, makeup air supplies, flues, pressure differentials, the use of CO detectors has pretty much covered the ground so I'll offer personal experience. I used to brew in the kitchen with Superb 15 kBTU burners. Did dozens of batches that way. It's always been my policy not to have a beer until the wort was in the fermenter and pitched and found that I always crave a beer brewed with whichever hops aroma I have been smelling for the previous hour. On one particular brew day I found I didn't want the beer because I didn't feel very well and as time passed I felt lousier and lousier but I did the cleanup and then went to lie down. Later that evening it clicked on me what the problem was. I had carbon monoxide poisoning. A check of the Superbs showed part of a leaf (they were stored outside on my porch) had drifted into the jet assembly restricting air flow and I hadn't noticed the flame color being different (under the pot). I was lucky but my vote is HELL NO!

 

[Dog House Brew]

Comes down to figuring your BTU of all burners. Then size the exhaust fan, then size the intake of makeup air your exhausting. I'm buying a vent that is vertical through the roof and another fan for makeup that takes up an entire window opening. The amount of CFM for exhaust and adequate makeup air is substantial. I see many indoor setups that I feel are unsafe. Carbon Monoxide is nothing to play with and anyone brewing with gas needs to be consulting with professionals. If I had 3 phase available, I would be going all electric and forgetting I ever used gas! Be safe if you choose to go inside.

 

[DocnSun]

A man's gotta know his limitations!
NAt gas and Propane are safe as long as you follow the rules and have proper ventilation. Previous poster stated faulty equipment! Would you drive a car with no brakes!
Know your equipment and know it's hazards!
For every 1000 btu of gas usage you need 10 square inches of ventilation!
30,000 would be 30 sq inches of fresh air entering the work space ie a 15" x 15" opening for fresh air! An induction fan can be utilized to increase 02. Any flame needs oxygen to feed it, when this decreases CO values go up. CO does not linger when mixed. It is not a mold that stays . Once it is diluted it's gone! When brewing be fresh and alert! I know it's a hobby but it's the same as if you were on the job making sure everything is on the up and up! Plumbing heating air Contractor 35 years.

 

[DocnSun]

sorry for the mistake in calculation that would be 300 sq inches or a 20 x 15 opening., or variation of.

 

[ajdelange]

A man's gotta know his limitations!

Exactly!

NAt gas and Propane are safe as long as you follow the rules and have proper ventilation.

Yep

Previous poster stated faulty equipment!

I assume you are referring to #57. The equipment was not faulty. There was a bit of leaf lodged in the venturi.

Would you drive a car with no brakes!

I don't as a matter of course check my brakes each time I step into the car so I might very well drive a car with no brakes though I wouldn't do it any more intentionally that I would operate gas equipment with partially blocked venturi. This is a good analogy in the sense that one is likely to forget to check his brakes (which he really should do) before driving and that he is likely to forget to check his venturis. It is a poor analogy in the sense that the driver of a car whose brakes have leaked their fluid overnight in the garage is likely to be alerted to that by the puddle on the floor or realize the situation the first time he applies the brakes presumably at low speed in his driveway. With CO there are no similar warnings, in fact no hint until one has been poisoned.

Know your equipment and know it's hazards!

Blockage of a venturi is a hazard I am and have always been aware of. Indeed I should have checked the venturis and I should check them everytime I fire up the boiler in my current setup and I should have functioning carbon monoxide detectors in my brewery and I should replace them every 7 years and I should test them and I should have a fume hood and makeup air and the boiler should be more than 18' above the floor of the adjacent garage and the electric outlets should be GFI and I should wear safety shoes and the list goes on. The problem is, as you note in the first line, a man has limitations. He is not, when in his home brewery, in an industrial setting where safety rules are reviewed, monitored and enforced. It is not a question of whether or not he will make a mistake. It is a question of when. Some mistakes have minor consequences (loss of beer) some have major (serious injury, death). Tragedies are caused by the coincidence of improbable events for which one is not prepared and for which the cost is very high. It is improbable that lightening will strike your house at the same time as a major accident on the road between you and the fire house but you protect against that by buying fire insurance. It is improbable that a leaf will drift into your venturi and that you forget to inspect it (usually for spiders rather than leaves) and the CO monitor is failed. Say the probability of each of those events is E-16. The value of my life to me is infinite. E-16*∞ =∞. But I can easily reduce the expected loss from such an event to 0 by keeping the bloody burners outside.

For every 1000 btu of gas usage you need 10 square inches of ventilation!

sorry for the mistake in calculation that would be 300 sq inches or a 20 x 15 opening., or variation of.

I couldn't come up with a better example to illustrate that someone, even someone with years of experience who knows all the rules and procedures, would be a fool to use an burner designed for outdoors in an enclosed space. Obviously, I have to stick the dunce cap on my own head as I have done it but I'll never do it again. I learned by my experience and I hope other will too. That's why I posted it.

 

[Dog House Brew]

sorry for the mistake in calculation that would be 300 sq inches or a 20 x 15 opening., or variation of.

Either size, , there are a lot of things in brewing for DIY. These types of calculations aren't one of them. One of my close friends owns an HVAC business, he saw my set-up. Long and short, I didn't have enough going out or in. I thought I had plenty. I'm going inside, but I'm not sure why with all the air coming in and going out I will feel like I'm outside anyways.

 

[DocnSun]

Thanks for the dissection of my post! I did not realize it was a pissing contest!

 

[TheZymurgist]

Thanks for the dissection of my post! I did not realize it was a pissing contest!

Of course it is! It's the internet! Where feeble minds try to justify their existence through meaningless arguments!

 

[ajdelange]

My pleasure. Some of your logic is flawed and if my pointing out the places where this is so saves someone's life I really don't care whether you think it 'was a pissing contest' or not. What is a 'pissing contest' anyway?

 

[plumber_bob]

Some people over Google-ate, some under google-ate. And some just know it all.

Simple fact is, ... if you die while brewing, you probably need more ventilation !

pb

 

[ajdelange]

And that's the simple beauty of using outdoor burners outdoors - they are ventilated as they were designed to be.

Isn't it amazing how rare common sense is? But that's, in large measure, why we have emergency rooms.

 

[c3hutson]

I'm building a big vent hood from sheet metal and using a retired furnace squirrel cage fan for venting. I'll open a window and add another fan for makeup air and add CO detectors to the house. Keep a fire extinguisher near and enjoy the warm.

 

[johnnv]

The professionals, in this forum, such as my self, 35 years HVAC engineer and technician, have no problem using gas burners indoors. Good ventilation no worries.
The know it all's, armed with half info cry a lot. You can find the same burners mounted on a frame, says for outdoor use only, and the same burner sold for commercial kitchen use (indoors). The outdoor only burner relives the seller of most liability, the indoor burner will have tags all over it, must be installed by a professional.
I am sure most people don't know it takes CO level of 200 PPM to become dangerous, so simply, if your standing there brewing and become woozie, dizzie, sick to you stomach, you may have a problem. Most people die from CO poisoning in their sleep from a faulty furnace.
Ask a professional for help if your not sure, but you can use gas appliances indoors.

 

[dkwolf]

Comes down to figuring your BTU of all burners. Then size the exhaust fan, then size the intake of makeup air your exhausting. I'm buying a vent that is vertical through the roof and another fan for makeup that takes up an entire window opening. The amount of CFM for exhaust and adequate makeup air is substantial. I see many indoor setups that I feel are unsafe. Carbon Monoxide is nothing to play with and anyone brewing with gas needs to be consulting with professionals. If I had 3 phase available, I would be going all electric and forgetting I ever used gas! Be safe if you choose to go inside.

Okay....why in the name of all that is good and foamy do you think you need 3 phase to go all-electric???? Maybe I'm missing something, but my understanding was that most of the all-electric brewers here were using a standard 240 volt residential service. (240v and 3 phase are NOT interchangeable terms)

 

[ajdelange]

If you knew how much stuff I have had to fix that was installed by 'professionals' and repaired by 'professionals' you might understand why I do most of my work myself. You may be an exceptionally skilled, motivated and accomplished individual and I have had professionals work on my stuff that meet that description, for whom I have a great deal of respect, but when the truck pulls into your driveway you don't know what you are getting (although it often becomes clear pretty soon). As much as I hate bureaucracy I see the value in inspections. If it meets the requirements of the Fuel Gas Code and passes inspection (though incompetence in that profession is another subject) I'm OK with it.

Speaking of inspections and such I am wondering if c3hutson intends to share his plans with his insurance company.

 

[ajdelange]

Okay....why in the name of all that is good and foamy do you think you need 3 phase to go all-electric????

So you never have to buy another starting cap!

 

[johnnv]

High Voltage electrical is also an area I am well versed in, goes along with HVAC all the way. Most heating elements used by brewers or your home water heater for that matter are single phase 220V 20Amp elements. Most heater have 2 of them, making it 40 amps.
That is a way to go also for brewing, many people use that. I am concerned with a very hot area in contact with the wort that can cause scalding or burning of the sugars.
Then there are also the safety issues. Compared to gas the risk are big also, two or three 20 amp 220v heaters in a wet environment, what could possibly go wrong? Your heart could stop instantly if your well grounded. Don't anyone tell me your using GFI's for safety in brewing, they would never work, trip instantly.
Bottom line, there are risk of health or injury in just about anything you do. Common sense prevails, if your uninjured and still alive

 

[c3hutson]

Speaking of inspections and such I am wondering if c3hutson intends to share his plans with his insurance company.

Sure. Sure I do.

 

[VladOfTrub]

"For every 1000 btu of gas usage you need 10 square inches of ventilation!"

Perhaps, you should read Manual #11 under combustion air requirements by Fields Controls or the American Fuel Gas Code Book under combustion air requirements for LP and NG, or page 63R in the International Mechanical Engineers Book. It's one sq. in. per 1K BTU in a natural draft burner (i.e. kitchen stove, cooker, certain boilers and furnaces). For forced combustion burners it's 1 sq. in. per 4K BTU. The boiler in my home is 200K BTU input, NG, natural draft. If I had an intake air vent sized at 10 sq. in. per 1000K. I'd need to install a separate heating system in the boiler room to keep the water pipes from freezing when it goes to 10F outside or I'd need to put a damper motor on it to close it when the boiler was off.

I use Blichmann burners in a 13 X 15 X 9 room. No widows, 2 doors, it isn't airtight. Two burners, at times, are on at the same time. The 3rd and 4th cycle during maintaining mash temp and during decoction. I have a Nighthawk CO tester. It's not the accumulating data type. It never goes above 6PPM with the doors closed. However, I have to open the doors to get rid of the heat and steam. Before converting to NG, the reading would be 11PPM. A standard gas stove puts out 4-9PPM with NG or LP. With all burners and oven on. Most standard modern gas stoves are rated 35K to 45K BTU. They burn clean. A standard battery type CO detector goes off at 35PPM. OSHA has different ideas that physical damage occurs at a much lower level based on time. Before going with Blichmann, I used Camp Chef LP burners. The combustion was poor, I would watch the Nighthawk go crazy. I had to keep the one door to the garage open to vent the CO and heat.

 

[ShootersBrewCrew]

Im really surprised by all these responses. Ive done 22 batches in the last 14 months, almost all of them full boils in my garage with a camp burner and a 1 gallon keg on top. To heat my mash water and to boil my wort. Yeah, I crack the door, no big deal. And I have a COAlarm, and it never goes off. Im jus sayin. A lot of folks here are super concerned about something thats not really gonna hurt you. Crack a door, get a little ventilation. Oh, and Relax, Have a Homebrew!!

I brew in the garage with the door cracked and a fan running... Keep Calm Drink Homebrew

 

[Totes]

I think the real issue here is should he be using a glass carboy or a better bottle.

 

[DrunkleJon]

The professionals, in this forum, such as my self, 35 years HVAC engineer and technician, have no problem using gas burners indoors. Good ventilation no worries.
The know it all's, armed with half info cry a lot. You can find the same burners mounted on a frame, says for outdoor use only, and the same burner sold for commercial kitchen use (indoors). The outdoor only burner relives the seller of most liability, the indoor burner will have tags all over it, must be installed by a professional.
I am sure most people don't know it takes CO level of 200 PPM to become dangerous, so simply, if your standing there brewing and become woozie, dizzie, sick to you stomach, you may have a problem. Most people die from CO poisoning in their sleep from a faulty furnace.
Ask a professional for help if your not sure, but you can use gas appliances indoors.

The key to your statement is professionals. The way the OP stated it sounded like a non professional in NG/LP combustion. Heck, if the OP were a professional in the field of LP/NG the question would probably not been posed. We are not saying that it is not doable, just that it is not a good idea without due consideration to CO and combustibles coming in contact with the open flame.

I guess the TL DR is you have a point, but we also are acting on CYA. Do we really want to lose a home brewer?

 

[Cider123]

propane burner in the garage, garage door at least half open. I am more concerned about freezing my balls off than any fumes.

 

[JDGator]

i heat my garage when it's really cold with either a diesel burning salamander heater or a propane heater. works great. i have even moved the CO detector from the house into the garage to see if i could get it to go off. no such luck. i have also worked underground in mines for 10plus years and wore a portable CO monitor. you are allowed to work in air that is 50 PPM (i believe) and over 10hr shift before having to be removed to fresh air. a diesel motor is acceptable if it's exhaust has less them 1500 PPM at 3/4 load. People die at night while sleeping because they are unable to feel the affects mentioned above.

now saying that, it is better to be safe then sorry. so opening the window or door some would definitely be the smart move. i'd be more worried about all the water vapor on my ceiling and walls rotting everything.

 

[bobmcstuff]

you are allowed to work in air that is 50 PPM (i believe) and over 10hr shift before having to be removed to fresh air.

I believe the US OSHA limit is 20ppm for an 8hr shift? That might not be right either

Being UK based I'm more familiar with the HSE guidance which gives a dosing formula based in exposure time (CO being a cumulative poison).

Typically I use a pessimistic figure of 450ppm to consider an area impaired (I work in offshore oil and gas major accident safety). That won't kill you but you won't be able to hang around for too long.