How to get the "farmyard" into cider ?

[Ray Dorset]

My favourite ciders have a "farmyard" flavour to them. I have found it really hard to replicate this. I have tried various yeasts and cultures. Brettanomyces Bruxxellenis, Lalvin ec118 and Lalvin 71B. All with malolactic cultures added after primary fermentation. What else should I try to get this "farmyard " flavour ?

 

[Dland]

You have to gather apples from pastures w animals in them, a few "droppings" on the wind drops, hence "farmyard".

Seriously though, traditional cider is made w windfall apples, ground whole, pressed and added to fermentation vessel(when I did this I used 50 gallon oak whisky barrels). No additional yeast or bugs required, as there is plenty in/on the apples.

 

[Maylar]

Search the cider forum for "funky". There was a thread a couple years ago about using White Labs WLP616 -
WLP616 Funky Cider Yeast Blend - Let's order it now so we get it the Fall

From their vault:
WLP616 Funky Cider Blend | White Labs

Dunno if you can still get it or not.

 

[smarch0]

Have you tried a Brettanomyces Bruxxellenis only fermentation? Did it once and came out almost too funky, but maybe what you are looking for? You could do a gallon test batch and call it a starter if you like it.

 

[AzOr]

I’ve fermented a gallon with Imperials Sour Batch Kidz and blended that with regular cider. It was tasty with a bit of barnyard complexity.
If I recall, I only added about 16 oz to the 5gallons of cider. That was plenty for me. I also heat pasteurized the funky cider before adding to the keg of regular cider.

Try it. It’s an easy and safe way to add complexity to your cider.

 

[Kees]

A layer of straw between every 2 layers of apple pulp.
http://www.hayefarmcider.com/making-our-cider

 

[Cyclman]

Belle saison?

 

[Albionwood]

"Farmyard" character, or funk, is mostly developed by wild yeast and bacteria. You can probably get some of it by fermenting with a Brett blend instead of a wine yeast.
Juice matters a lot. If you are pressing your own, you have a lot more opportunity to get wild character than if you are buying juice.
I use a hybrid technique, using sulfite to suppress most of the wild bugs but not enough to kill them off. Most of the fermentation is done with wine yeast, but there's just enough of the native flora remaining to give it a little funk. This is enhanced by the tannins in the juice (I grow my own cider fruit).

 

[AzOr]

"Farmyard" character, or funk, is mostly developed by wild yeast and bacteria. You can probably get some of it by fermenting with a Brett blend instead of a wine yeast.
Juice matters a lot. If you are pressing your own, you have a lot more opportunity to get wild character than if you are buying juice.
I use a hybrid technique, using sulfite to suppress most of the wild bugs but not enough to kill them off. Most of the fermentation is done with wine yeast, but there's just enough of the native flora remaining to give it a little funk. This is enhanced by the tannins in the juice (I grow my own cider fruit).

Sounds like a good technique. How much potassium metabisulfte do you use?

 

[Albionwood]

I mix up a stock 10% solution (100 g/L) and add enough of that to make about 25-75 mg/L in the juice. Actual dosage is pH-dependent; you need more sulfite at higher pH. And you can vary the dosage to achieve different results, from complete "kill" to a spontaneous ferment.
My juice has a low population of wild yeast and a very high population of mold spores. Without sulfiting, mold invariably starts first and suppresses yeast, ruining the juice. So to suppress mold while retaining some wild character, I add a half-dose of the stock solution into a carboy (or tank) that is already filled with juice, and don't stir it in. This creates a high-concentration layer at the surface, without killing off everything in the juice. Typically I let that sit for a few days and then add a wine yeast (D47 is still my favorite). You can try letting it go longer and see if a spontaneous fermentation starts, but you also risk bacterial acidification. Unfortunately Acetobacter isn't particularly sulfite-sensitive.
Great discussion of sulfite use here: Sulfite - **************** wiki
Note that cider is effectively a low-alcohol dry white wine.

 

[AzOr]

I mix up a stock 10% solution (100 g/L) and add enough of that to make about 25-75 mg/L in the juice. Actual dosage is pH-dependent; you need more sulfite at higher pH. And you can vary the dosage to achieve different results, from complete "kill" to a spontaneous ferment.
My juice has a low population of wild yeast and a very high population of mold spores. Without sulfiting, mold invariably starts first and suppresses yeast, ruining the juice. So to suppress mold while retaining some wild character, I add a half-dose of the stock solution into a carboy (or tank) that is already filled with juice, and don't stir it in. This creates a high-concentration layer at the surface, without killing off everything in the juice. Typically I let that sit for a few days and then add a wine yeast (D47 is still my favorite). You can try letting it go longer and see if a spontaneous fermentation starts, but you also risk bacterial acidification. Unfortunately Acetobacter isn't particularly sulfite-sensitive.
Great discussion of sulfite use here: Sulfite - **************** wiki
Note that cider is effectively a low-alcohol dry white wine.

Wow. Great info!
Thanks for taking the time. Admittedly, my cider making style is much less scientific but I’m moving in that direction.

 

[madscientist451]

Skip the science, cider wants to make itself. Get some tree ripened fruit, figure out how to smash the apples and press out the juice and let it ferment on its own.
I do t least one wild ferment cider each season, and I don't know if its the "farmyard" character you are looking for, but its definitely different and funky compared to the commercial yeast strain batches.

 

[Ray Dorset]

A BIG big thank you to the range and quality of advice I am getting on this. I am really enjoying it and really appreciate it.

 

[AzOr]

Belle saison?

Great idea with a friendly amendment-
I’m currently using Imperial’s Napoleon which is a Belgian saison strain. So far I really like it. It adds a little complexity to the finish, it clears with lightning speed and it has a “mature” cider taste just a few weeks past terminal gravity.
I have used Belle Saison yeast in past and all I got was a clean wine like profile. According to their website it’s a Belgian strain as well so I’m not sure why the big flavor difference. I have read elsewhere that others had similar experiences with Belle’s strain.

 

[AzOr]

This is a small batch of cider fermented with Imperial Sourbatch Kidz. It’s a bit under a gallon.
I’ll let it age and then I’ll heat to 150f for a bit then blend it with a larger batch.
It’s been going for a month or so and has quite a bit of barnyard, hay, funk to it.
I imagine I’ll only add 10-20%, otherwise it’d be too much.

 

[Onehappycloud]

Skip the science, cider wants to make itself. Get some tree ripened fruit, figure out how to smash the apples and press out the juice and let it ferment on its own.
I do t least one wild ferment cider each season, and I don't know if its the "farmyard" character you are looking for, but its definitely different and funky compared to the commercial yeast strain batches.

hi hi,
I like your post, and would love using nothing than apples. But we all are stuck without travelling to any countryside now... I did a fermentation using only apples and Belgian saison yeast. Now when I bottled it I have about 1/2 l of lees, which both taste and smells nicely. Still fermenting. Could I somehow feed it and reuse for my other batch? I know some of it is dead yeast but it seems quite alive. I believe the Alc in my finished cider was ab 4.5 - 5%. prob not too toxic for the yeast?
thanks for your advice!

 

[Kees]

You can always keep some yeast for a next batch. You can freeze it.

 

[bernardsmith]

Skip the science, cider wants to make itself. Get some tree ripened fruit, figure out how to smash the apples and press out the juice and let it ferment on its own.
I do t least one wild ferment cider each season, and I don't know if its the "farmyard" character you are looking for, but its definitely different and funky compared to the commercial yeast strain batches.

But if you have access to a cider making orchard then you can buy the juice from them and skip the process of harvesting the fruit, crushing it and pressing the juice. And even if YOU cannot get to an orchard it is possible (as in my neck o' the wood) that the orchards use LHBS to sell their apple juice to wine and cider maker hobbyists. They provide you with the apple mix they use, the SG and the pH of the juice and we can buy from 1 gallon to whatever volume you desire.

 

[madscientist451]

Yes that's a good plan, I have one local source for actual cider apple juice and I go out of my way every year to get that, but its too pricey for me to risk a wild ferment.

 

[Kees]

https://cidercraftmag.com/2017/08/14/the-meaning-of-farmhouse-cider/

 

[Maylar]

https://cidercraftmag.com/2017/08/14/the-meaning-of-farmhouse-cider/

"Farmhouse" isn't the same as "barnyard". The OP is looking for barnyard funkyness.

 

[AzOr]

Last season I did a cherry cider. 4 gallons of pressed sharp apples and one gallon of tart cherry juice (from Costco I believe). I simultaneously fermented about a half gallon of cherry juice with Imperial Sourbatch Kidz. After 9 months I pasteurized that batch and blended it back with the main batch.
I only used about 12 oz of the soured cider as it was very strong.
The end result was delicious. It had a umami finish that’s hard to describe. Normally I find cherry ciders a bit boring but this turned out great.
I gave out quite a bit of it and people really liked it.
Nobody described the Brett flavor but the feedback was that it was complex and had a good mouthfeel.

 

[TheMadKing]

My favorite cider in the world is Txotx from Northern Spain. Very tart and funky

I got great barnyard from a cider by fermenting with US-04, adding a few cans of frozen concentrate and then adding Omega All The Bretts. A little acid blend helped to crisp up the flavor but it turned into a great cider. It took about 3 months for the flavor to really develop though

 

[AzOr]

My favorite cider in the world is Txotx from Northern Spain. Very tart and funky

I got great barnyard from a cider by fermenting with US-04, adding a few cans of frozen concentrate and then adding Omega All The Bretts. A little acid blend helped to crisp up the flavor but it turned into a great cider. It took about 3 months for the flavor to really develop though

Did you ferment the entire batch w Brett?

 

[TheMadKing]

Did you ferment the entire batch w Brett?

Yep, just dumped it right into the fermenter along with the frozen concentrate after primary had finished with S-04