How much in and how much out

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Dr1nkBeer

Dr1nkBeer

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Okay.. i've ready many posts new and old.. .but basicly i'm looking for opionions on an all grain batch.

I have about 13 lbs of grain and want to do a 5 gallon boil. I'd like to get 5.7 galons out of the mash...

I've read here that most use anywhere from 1 to 1.5 qts per pound in the mash. that seems fine... What can i expect to have on hand as far as wash water to end up with 5 gallons when finished?.. i'm thinking about 3-4 gallons.

second: Need a vote on where my specialty malts would be most effective..
recipe has 1 lb. of each of Crystal 120, Chocolate Malt, and Black Patent.

If you havent guessed already its a stout... i'm thinking about mashing in at 172 degrees... Washing out with 190 degrees.
 
First 172 is way to high to mash. For a stout I would go for around 158. (172 might be your strike water, but the mash should be in the 150s.)

A neat calculator>


http://www.brewheads.com/batch.php

I batch sparge. So, if I want 5.7 gallons preboil. I'll mash in with the 1.25 qts/#. After the mash I would drain the first runnings into a bucket marked with gallons. It's Ok to guesstimate. Subtract this amount from your preboil volume and divide by two. These amounts are your sparge volumes. You'll end up with your preboil everytime because when sparge your grain is already saturated and will not absorb anymore wort. I always try to have more sparge water in the HLT then I will need. I can always use it for cleaning.
 
Your stike water is going to be 172 degrees or you plan to mash at 172? I hope the former because 172 will obliterate your amlyase enzymes. As for water in water out, figure out how much you think the grain will absorb and then adjust your mash ratio and sparge accordingly so you end up with target volume. For the specialty grains, and this is just my opinion, you might consider steeping them instead of mashing. I've found that when I mash darker roasted grains the beer comes out with a harsh bitterness. If I steep them it comes out much smoother. For lighter specialty grains just throw em in the mash.
 
Grains will absorb ~0.125 gal/pound of grain, but this should only be used to give you a rough idea of how much water to prepare. Use the method Hammy described to determine the actual sparge volume to use. And always prepare extra water just in case, especially if you don't yet have your deadspace figured out yet.
 
Hammy71 said:
A neat calculator>


http://www.brewheads.com/batch.php

I batch sparge. So, if I want 5.7 gallons preboil. I'll mash in with the 1.25 qts/#. After the mash I would drain the first runnings into a bucket marked with gallons. It's Ok to guesstimate. Subtract this amount from your preboil volume and divide by two. These amounts are your sparge volumes. You'll end up with your preboil everytime because when sparge your grain is already saturated and will not absorb anymore wort. I always try to have more sparge water in the HLT then I will need. I can always use it for cleaning.
Click to expand...

Mashing/batch sparge advice does not get much better/clearer than this.:mug:
 
soup67 said:
Mashing/batch sparge advice does not get much better/clearer than this.:mug:
Click to expand...

You said that right... and I couldnt really find that in the searches i did...

I'm going to run numbers..

nothing i did so far makes sense...
 
Dr1nkBeer said:
You said that right... and I couldnt really find that in the searches i did...

I'm going to run numbers..

nothing i did so far makes sense...
Click to expand...


The easiest way to do it is to measure how much wort you get from the mash. Subtract that from the amount you want to boil. The number you get is how much sparge water to use.
 
So completed my first All grain batch and it went really well not big issues to report. What seems odd is that my % in the efficiency calculator says 72% but my recipe at that efficiency says it should it been 1.047 and i got closer to 1.041??

I had the two 5 galon water coolers (gatorade type)... one as the mash tun one as the hot Liquor tank.

I heated 4 galons of water to 175 degres and added it to the liquor tank.... I used the spigot to fill my mash tun to 3.75 then i added my 9 lbs of grain ( I know this is a bit much water)... i mixed it up well and took temp reading of the mash at about 155 degrees... and shut the lid. waited about an hour... to take the first runnings... suprising to me it basically came our pretty clean (no grains) but I took the first two quarts and poured it back into the mashtun and started collecting my wort.

Color looked great its a stout so i was impressed how dark it was... i had the liquor tank now at about 175 and it was slowly drizzling into the mashtun as the wort was being collected at about the same rate. ( the mashtun drain was a bit quicker).


Now with that said... I originally had questions regarding the sparge water amount... I took advise here and just made sure i had extra water in the liquor tank for sparging (rinsing the grains)... The wort pretty much remained the same color through out the sparge and began to turn lighter near the 5.5 galons of wort collected. I cut it down at 5.5. and began my boil... Is this about right? It was a stout so seeing the color was easy... but basicaly i'm wondering if you sparge until you meet your boil volume or is there anything that could indicate you should cut down the sparge early?...

Other than this question everything went so well and cant wait to taste this beer... its a little short on ABV at 4.2 for a stout (the ones i like) but it should be fine.

thanks for the help and answers.. really couldnt have done it without this forum...
 
You'll want to sparge until you meet your boil volume, usually, or until your runnings get under 1.010. Most people will hit their boil volume long before they have to worry about the runnings' gravity being so low, though, so it's not really a worry for most batches with about 10 pounds of grain or more.

I boil off 1.5 gallons per hour, and leave nearly .25 gallon behind in the kettle to trub losses and stuff in my chiller and hoses, so I start with 7 gallons preboil to end up with 5.25 gallons in the fermenter.
 
Yooper said:
You'll want to sparge until you meet your boil volume, usually, or until your runnings get under 1.010. Most people will hit their boil volume long before they have to worry about the runnings' gravity being so low, though, so it's not really a worry for most batches with about 10 pounds of grain or more.

I boil off 1.5 gallons per hour, and leave nearly .25 gallon behind in the kettle to trub losses and stuff in my chiller and hoses, so I start with 7 gallons preboil to end up with 5.25 gallons in the fermenter.
Click to expand...


yeah got it!... I did stop the sparge at 5.5 i ended up with just under 5 galons in the primary. The runnings were still coming out pretty dark not as dark as the first 5 gallons... one other question i had is to get an accurate reading on efficiency should you take your gravity from the wort before boiling, and take out your cup or so for that?
 
Dr1nkBeer said:
yeah got it!... I did stop the sparge at 5.5 i ended up with just under 5 galons in the primary. The runnings were still coming out pretty dark not as dark as the first 5 gallons... one other question i had is to get an accurate reading on efficiency should you take your gravity from the wort before boiling, and take out your cup or so for that?
Click to expand...

If you are are measuring mash efficiency you want to take a preboil gravity measurement and compare that to what the grain bill should generate in gravity points assuming your pre-boil volume (5.5g)

Sounds like you could have sparged with a little more water. I usually assume at least a gallon of boil-off for a 1 hour/6.5 gallon boil.
 
yea thats where i took the OG... i'm thinking about increasing my grain bill next time as I was worried that it started running to "thin" and would have forced me to use some DME and i really didnt want to..
 
Took a gravity of my stout and after 7 days It's at .019 it's on the sweet side for me i moved it to secondary today do you guys think it will hit .010? I used the ferments s-04 for the first time. I really want the extra abv not to mention a nice dry finish. Should I pitch again? I have some wp001.
Thoughts?
 
okay its been 19 days total fermentation... gravity is still saying 1.018. Its a chocolate oatmeal stout.. Should I pitch again? Or is it done?
 
Dr1nkBeer said:
okay its been 19 days total fermentation... gravity is still saying 1.018. Its a chocolate oatmeal stout.. Should I pitch again? Or is it done?
Click to expand...

It sounds like it's done. Attenuation depends on several things- yeast strain, fermentability of the ingredients, mash temperature, and so on.
 
In future, the rule of thumb is, lower mash temps = higher attenuation and dryer beer.
Higher Mash Temp = Lower attentuation and sweeter beer.

Next go round you might try mashing closer to 148, see if that yields a better result.
 
okay cool... i'm about to do another all grain tomorrow or sunday... will shoot for 148...
 
I was short about .010 from my target OG... AFter the mashout i weighed in at 1.040 i should have been 1.050. I doughed in at 170 degrees and hit a target mash temp of 152 degrees. I mashed for 90 min. as my HLT was not ready to sparge.


I had to add a 1 lb of DME to reach 1.060 in this recipe..

8 Lbs of 2 row
.5 lb of Carapils
.5 lb of Melonoidin
.5 lb of cara Munich
1 lb of Honey (added to the primary)

mashed at 152 for 90 minutes. Sparged (washed out with 190 degree water).
 
Do you understand the difference in Temps that the mash will make?

Also, you mention different times when you are taking the gravity. What are you using to do this and at what temp are the samples?

I think you need to just brew some beers and stop worrying about the Gravity readings so much. If you are consistently coming up short on your numbers you can adjust your efficiency to reflect it and compensate with more or less grain.
 
What kind of separation medium do you have in your tun? How big is your boil kettle? If you can work with a preboil of a little more than 6 gallons, you'll have less trouble with efficiency. The reason I ask about the separation medium is that you're currently fly sparging and the tun might not be optimized for that process.
 
okay... I have the classic two 5 gallon Drink Cooler setup... i have a aluminun (aluminum pan - not aluminum foil) laying on top of the grains.. And It takes about 15 to 20 minutes to wash out to 5 gallons of wort in the 6 gallon boil kettle i have.

I actually have 10 gallons of water at 170 degrees ready before sparging taking place.. I boil my imersion chiller so i basically boil 5 gallons and put it in my HLT and then refil that pot with water and begin another boil before the mash is ready to sparge...

i'm thinking it could be the foil as it doesnt have holes in it.... water hits it and it rolls to the sides (trying to keep the water level 1 inch above grains...) a few time the water level fell bellow the grains. Could thist help?.. creating a sprinkler sparge water distributer instead of the foil?
 
Dr1nkBeer said:
okay... I have the classic two 5 gallon Drink Cooler setup... i have a aluminun (aluminum pan - not aluminum foil) laying on top of the grains.. And It takes about 15 to 20 minutes to wash out to 5 gallons of wort in the 6 gallon boil kettle i have.

I actually have 10 gallons of water at 170 degrees ready before sparging taking place.. I boil my imersion chiller so i basically boil 5 gallons and put it in my HLT and then refil that pot with water and begin another boil before the mash is ready to sparge...

i'm thinking it could be the foil as it doesnt have holes in it.... water hits it and it rolls to the sides (trying to keep the water level 1 inch above grains...) a few time the water level fell bellow the grains. Could thist help?.. creating a sprinkler sparge water distributer instead of the foil?
Click to expand...

How are you sparging? If you're fly sparging, by letting a bit of water flow continously through the foil pan into the MLT, you're doing it WAY too fast! It should take at least 45 minutes to sparge.
 
yup still playing with that app. makes sense... I think i'm going to put some in line PVC valves to control the flow... and test the flow a bit... i have a barley wine coming up so i'll have to test... this batch is going to be 3 gallons so the controll may be easier...

are there any other ill effects of have a such a quick sparge?... tannins or any other "off" flavors that could happen?
 
G-THANKS... nice sammich. I was just wondering if affecting the Gravity is the ONLY think i can expect. Adding a little DME can handle that part..
 
Dr1nkBeer said:
yup still playing with that app. makes sense... I think i'm going to put some in line PVC valves to control the flow... and test the flow a bit... i have a barley wine coming up so i'll have to test... this batch is going to be 3 gallons so the controll may be easier...

are there any other ill effects of have a such a quick sparge?... tannins or any other "off" flavors that could happen?
Click to expand...

You still haven't answered the question of what you use to separate the wort (false bottom, manifold, SS braid, bag, etc). Are you saying you don't have any valve to control the flow coming out of the MLT? You absolutely need one for fly sparging.

I can't think of any negative effects of fly sparging too fast other than poor efficiency, but if you're going to try to rush a fly sparge, you'd be better off batch sparging instead. This will be faster and easier than fly sparging, and net a higher efficiency than fly sparging incorrectly. It will also eliminate issues you may be having with channeling due to your separation mechanism.
 
sorry.. thought i did... I use at "T" connector with a braided stainless (removed the tube) inserted twisted wire to help it not get crshed by grain... that feeds throught the drain hole using some 5/16 OD hose... I have a line "crimp" at the moment to control flow... i think this is where i need the valve instead... to give me a more precise flow...
 
Dr1nkBeer said:
sorry.. thought i did... I use at "T" connector with a braided stainless (removed the tube) inserted twisted wire to help it not get crshed by grain... that feeds throught the drain hole using some 5/16 OD hose... I have a line "crimp" at the moment to control flow... i think this is where i need the valve instead... to give me a more precise flow...
Click to expand...

Will not fly sparging with a braid also impact efficiency?
 
I'm trying to help out here, but can you run through your entire brew process and include a recipe.

PS...I asked you a few questions earlier in the thread that you ignored, so I gave you a direct answer and it seems to me that you replied sarcastically.
 
Dr1nkBeer said:
sorry.. thought i did... I use at "T" connector with a braided stainless (removed the tube) inserted twisted wire to help it not get crshed by grain... that feeds throught the drain hole using some 5/16 OD hose... I have a line "crimp" at the moment to control flow... i think this is where i need the valve instead... to give me a more precise flow...
Click to expand...

A braid really isn't well suited for fly sparging. Have you considered batch sparging?
 
The 13lb. grain bill you mentioned may be a bit high and could effect the efficiency in a 5 gal.cooler. I use a 5 gal. round cooler and batch sparge with lower grain lbs. and have yet to hit lower than .005 on est OG. There is a thread (" This is how big your mash tun needs to be" by Bobby M) that addresses most all your questions. I would post it but dont know how (me computer dummy) ; my thinking is a looser grain bed gives you high efficiency. As long as the water and grain mix well you should be OK they just need more room. Just my thinking. Cheers;)
 
oooops... 9.5 lbs. is fine in that mlt. Try batch sparge with the same recipe and see what you get. Cheers:eek:
 
arch1tect said:
Do you understand the difference in Temps that the mash will make?

Also, you mention different times when you are taking the gravity. What are you using to do this and at what temp are the samples?

I think you need to just brew some beers and stop worrying about the Gravity readings so much. If you are consistently coming up short on your numbers you can adjust your efficiency to reflect it and compensate with more or less grain.
Click to expand...

Didnt see this one... I took my OG when my kettle was going to the burner. I put my sample in a flask and chilled it to 70 degrees and took the reading.

I agree i need a bit more experience in the all grain area... I think my fly sparge was way to fast... i'll slow it down and see..

didnt mean to be sarcarstic.
 
JuanMoore said:
A braid really isn't well suited for fly sparging. Have you considered batch sparging?
Click to expand...

This is what I was going to say. First, a fast fly sparge will hurt your efficiency, as it's the process of diffusion that "pulls" the sugars out of the grain bed as the water slowly moves through the grain. Secondly, a braid has some design flaws in a fly sparge. It will cause channeling and an uneven "rinsing" of the grainbed. The two issues combined are probably a huge part of what happened here.

I'd suggest either changing the braid to a manifold or false bottom, or batch sparging. I'd go with the batch sparging at least for the next brew, as it's faster and would require no changes to your equipment.
 
Thats exactly what i plan on doing....

Really appreciate the replies... and Thanks to Bobby_M for his write up on the sparging... that info is priceless.
 
okay so i decided to go cpvc manifold... my all grain gear is based on 5 galon batches... so my manifold is made up of mostly elbows and one "T"... my question is can I poke holes or slits not only in the cpvc pipe i plan on using but also in the fittings?.. check the image..

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/xGeLskO9NHxoVBEVyowmzcMc8HhT5YLYFVXX5YAaNBs?feat=directlink

I really rather fly sparge and my braided setup obviously was giving me poor efficiency and was more appropriate for the batch sparging mention in this thread... As far as fly sparging this is what i hope will get my OG where it should be.
 
If you think that fly sparging vs. batch sparging will have much impact on your efficiency, you may be surprised. I recently did an interview for a Beersmith podcast with John Palmer and Gordon Strong. All 3 of us were in agreement that there's virtually no efficiency difference between fly and batch sparging. As a data point, on the mash I completed about 20 min. ago, I got 87% efficiency with a batch sparge. Sparge any way that you like, but make sure you evaluate the process so you can know what's really going on.
 

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