How many fuses do you really need?

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decoleur

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Looking a PJ designs and others I see that some use no fuses and some put one on every device. I was thinking of having one on the circuit feeding the pumps and another on the circuit with the PIDs. Recently I have seen a couple that put a fuse in the E-Stop to contactor circuit. Is that going further than really needed?

Thanks for your opinions.

-decoleur
 
<beathorsetodeath>Please do not use any an Estop design which purposely faults a breaker</beathorsetodeath>

Some designs use fuses and some use breakers. The benefit to breakers are obvious, but for small ampere loads you will likely need to use fuses.
 
It's up to you. You only need a breaker/fuse where wire size decreases and for big loads.

Probably good to isolate the main power/element from small stuff with one fuse upstream from the low power stuff like Kal does.
 
<beathorsetodeath>Please do not use any an Estop design which purposely faults a breaker</beathorsetodeath>

Some designs use fuses and some use breakers. The benefit to breakers are obvious, but for small ampere loads you will likely need to use fuses.

not planning on faulting the breaker. my faults are my own.

but I was thinking more along the lines of the fuses used in HarpuaScorpio's response #7 in the thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7438331#post7438331
 
I ran a fuse to the PID and then branched off of that for LEDs and what not. Trying to do all of those with 10ga wire is a PITA.
 
The number of fues will vary depending on:

1. How many amps are being drawn on any given circuit.

2. How many amps each device draws (include startup amps when figuring for motors)

3. How many electrical fires you want to have.
 
#3 is more dependent on attention to detail. I assume you're not looking to build a 10bbl fully automated system, for homebrew scale a little sense and a good bit of reading will give you everything you need.
 
I put 1 - 5 amp circuit breaker in my 3 vessel eHERMS panel to protect 3 PIDs, 3 contactor coils, 2 pumps and all the LED lights. I calculated my total draw and doubled it to size this circuit breaker. I do have 1 fuse that takes power off the mains to power the main contactor.

Chris
 
here is what I ended up with I think this will do the trick, let me know if you all see any issues with this design.
panel-design1-67047.png
 
here is what I ended up with I think this will do the trick, let me know if you all see any issues with this design.

The 15A breaker is redundant since it is in series with (a probably lower rated) fuse.

You are missing neutral connections to the lights in the pump switches.

The float switches on the control signals to the SSR's won't protect the elements from dry firing in the case of a failed SSR.

I didn't check the safe start circuit because I don't have a schematic for the internals of the octal base relay handy.

Brew on :mug:
 
The 15A breaker is redundant since it is in series with (a probably lower rated) fuse.

Yep the fuse was supposed to protect a leg that has the PIDs on it after the Pumps.

You are missing neutral connections to the lights in the pump switches.

good catch, I will update the diagram with these updates when I get my hands on the computer with visio on it.

The float switches on the control signals to the SSR's won't protect the elements from dry firing in the case of a failed SSR.

The SSR that I am using are the Teledyne SD24R50. I think they fail closed and the circuit with my safe start required that the elements and pumps are turned off or else the panel doesn't get energized. What else could I do to prevent dry firing in the case of a faulty SSR?

I didn't check the safe start circuit because I don't have a schematic for the internals of the octal base relay handy.


I think the safe start circuit is good because I modeled it after the safe start design from Kal's electric brewery design here http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-safe-start-interlock?page=4

Thanks for looking over the design.
 
Yep the fuse was supposed to protect a leg that has the PIDs on it after the Pumps.

In that case, just move the fuse past the point where the power branches off to the pumps.

The SSR that I am using are the Teledyne SD24R50. I think they fail closed and the circuit with my safe start required that the elements and pumps are turned off or else the panel doesn't get energized. What else could I do to prevent dry firing in the case of a faulty SSR?

In order to protect the elements in the case of SSR failure, you would need to have the float switches control the power the coils of the element contactors. You might not want 120V on the float switches, and in that case you would need to have the float switches control relays which then control power to the contactor coils. That in turn would require a low voltage DC power to supply to be added. Not sure it's worth the trouble. Just brought it up for completeness.

Brew on :mug:
 
Is that a 50A setup? It looks like you have individual switches for each element. Hard to tell without labels. If it's not a 50A setup, what prevents you from "accidentally" turning on both elements?
 
You don't really "need" any fuses.

We could go overboard and use fuses or breakers on every single wire every time gauge gets smaller. If you start doing this you'll find it's a slippery slope and you'll end up with 100's of fuses/breakers. It's not just the wires but the components themselves. When we feed a PID, the circuitry inside the PID is very complex (by comparison) with different parts pulling different amounts of current. The PID manufacturer doesn't have dozens of fuses inside to protect all parts (there aren't any fuses at all).

Same with most 120V things we use around the house. A table lamp only draws say 40-60W max (0.3-0.5A) and has a thin power cord that isn't able to handle carrying the full 15A that the outlet can supply. If you short out the light socket the idea is that house breaker will pop or something in the light will break/pop before the cord or other things melt/catch fire or the wires in the walls melt. (The 15A circuit breaker is technically only there to protect the permanent wall wiring as they don't know what you may plug in after).

When things that normally draw very small amounts of current short out, the wires are so tiny that they usually just burn out at the sudden existence of high current. The thin wire used in the coil of a relay (for example) can only take a very little bit of current before it burns out. If something was to short in there, the relay coil would likely burn out before the 30A breaker powering a brewing panel pops.

Normally with devices we don't fuse to protect the individual parts. You rarely if ever see this done in commercial products as that gets insanely expensive (not to mention that you can rarely fix the thing anyway if an individual part fails).

What we want to protect is when you don't know how something will be used. This is what I do with my designs. A good example is the heating element outputs on my 50A panel design: I use 30A fuses or breakers just in case someone decides to plug in a 10,000W element which would draw almost 42A. This is less than the 50A main breaker so that would NOT trip, but it would overload the 30A (10 gauge) wiring, 30A contactors, and other 30A parts causing them to overheat and possibly melt or fail. So I use a fuse/breaker because we can't always control what someone may plug in. Even that is generally considered overkill however. To use the example of the lightbulb in the table lamp, your lamp may say "60W max" but there's nothing stopping you from putting in a 150W bulb or even larger that may overheat the wall cord. The cord, light socket, and switch may not be rated for the higher current needed to power a (say) 150W bulb. Actually, you can be 100% sure it isn't as that would cost the manufacturer more money so there's no way they'd do that "just in case".

You'll see this happen all the time with power cords as it's highly misunderstood by the average person. Take this universal power cord: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000067RWH/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It's 18 AWG (18 gauge) which means it's only meant for 10A max. But since it's a "universal" cord, some people will use it with devices that draw more than 10A causing it to overheat (not good) like powering a high end PC (and then give the item a "bad" rating but that's a whole other story... ;)). The manufacturer of the $7 power cord isn't going to put in a 10A fuse or breaker. That's going to start to get a little silly/drive the costs up exponentially.

Back to brewing: I see many brewers build panels and fuse everything, including every PID, timer, and so forth. I think that's complete overkill. If a PID is going to all of a sudden start drawing more current than it's supposed to, it's because it's failed/broken and needs to be replaced anyway. You haven't protected it by fusing it. Current is pulled by the device, not pushed. Putting in a fuse doesn't protect a device from being pushed too much current in its direction as that's not how current works.

That said, I do put in a single 7A fuse but that's mostly to protect the pump outputs to avoid someone plugging in a combination of two pumps that draw more than 7A which may push a 30A panel over the 30A limit. (7A + 22.9A for a 5500W heating element puts us at the 30A limit). I'm glad I did that as I've seen at least one commercial brewers pop that fuse when they plug in their high current draw industrial pump!

Not sure if this helps. It's a bit rambly/stream of consciousness.

Good luck with your build!

Kal
 
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