How long to leave hops in crash cool, on top of primary yeast, etc.?

[Gadjobrinus]

Hi guys, a bit under the weather, a lot lazy.

I usually xfer my dry hops after 24 hours of crash cooling. We're at 48 hours tonight, temp is 35F. Also not my usual thing, dry hopping (like last brew) was in the primary, nothing racked, etc. They were a slurry going in.

I'd thought to leave it in fairly long, a sort of cold conditioning on top of everything. Better that than to rack into my serving vessel. Just let everything sit for a week or two at 35, transfer and carbonate.

Anyway, the real question is, does anyone else hop on top of their "cake" and if so, do you crash in the same vessel. If so, how long do you let everything stay? I'd love to get a million posts saying, "Oh, about 4 months. It doesn't matter."

Edit: I should add, I typically dry hop in a second, empty vessel for a short period, 3 days. I then typically crash and xfer to the serving vessel after 24 hours. Always worked really well, but I only have the two vessels and, working on limited O2 pickup.

The short dry hopping, the slurry, etc., I learned from Matt Brynildson. I don't like vegetal characteristics. My thought was the vegetal pickup would be limited under such a cold hold, but I have no idea if that's right. Any thoughts on this, too, appreciated.

 

[Jag75]

Hi guys, a bit under the weather, a lot lazy.

I usually xfer my dry hops after 24 hours of crash cooling. We're at 48 hours tonight, temp is 35F. Also not my usual thing, dry hopping (like last brew) was in the primary, nothing racked, etc. They were a slurry going in.

I'd thought to leave it in fairly long, a sort of cold conditioning on top of everything. Better that than to rack into my serving vessel. Just let everything sit for a week or two at 35, transfer and carbonate.

Anyway, the real question is, does anyone else hop on top of their "cake" and if so, do you crash in the same vessel. If so, how long do you let everything stay? I'd love to get a million posts saying, "Oh, about 4 months. It doesn't matter."

Edit: I should add, I typically dry hop in a second, empty vessel for a short period, 3 days. I then typically crash and xfer to the serving vessel after 24 hours. Always worked really well, but I only have the two vessels and, working on limited O2 pickup.

The short dry hopping, the slurry, etc., I learned from Matt Brynildson. I don't like vegetal characteristics. My thought was the vegetal pickup would be limited under such a cold hold, but I have no idea if that's right. Any thoughts on this, too, appreciated.

I dry hop right in primary . I haven't been able to cold crash yet but soon since my chiller is about ready but from what I've seen around here 2 -3 days is a popular cold crash time if I remember right .

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks Jag. This was actually my first in taking CC to 2 days; always went with 1 day and then xferred to another vessel for fining. 4 vessels, lol. No, no O2 pickup there.

Well, did it tonight. Usual 3 days of warm slurry, crash to 35 x 2 days and rack to serving vessel. I couldn't be happier. It's excellent. For a pretty hopped beer I'm pleased with the clarity and as it was at 35 and not serving temp, we'll see how it looks a bit warmer.

Taste: A good bite of bitterness followed very closely on by just a touch of malty sweetness, then a long cascade (no pun) of citrus, citrus rind, and stonefruit. Apricot. The stone fruit gives it a real lusciousness. It's interesting to me - the lusciousness makes me want to suggest some tropical fruits, but none are there. Just nice apricot that blends great with these other Cascade and Centennial qualities. My use of Challenger for bittering at 60 and Styrian at 30, along with the 1 to 4 part contribution of EKG in DH, makes me want to do a lot more playing in hybridizing some hops like this. Mouthfeel is exactly what I was shooting for. I always liked my IPAs those many years ago, but they were taken straight from Goose Island technique - 158F, and out. My son asked for a very drinkable summer quencher, and asked for an American IPA over a strong bitter (original plan). So I went in at 149F for an hour, ramped up to 156 and held for 20, to 170F x 15 and begin vorlauf.

This is freshly drawn off a force carb, 35 PSI. I did pick up some particulate but it was at the very end. I think I closed it off quickly enough to have a pretty clean transfer. Anyway, her she is:

 

[day_trippr]

I always dry hop with free swimming pellets, never use a secondary, cold crash (under light CO2 pressure) for 2-3 days before closed transfer to a purged keg. This week I have another batch of Julius cruising along at 66°F which I just "bio-hopped" today (3 ounces per each half of the 10 gallon batch), will let that ride for three days with a decent rocking each day then will hit it with a second round of pellets (same amount) for four days before crashing the whole mess o' mush to the bottom.

Secondaries are anathematic to highly hopped beers just from the oxygen exposure. Don't do them

Cheers!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yeah, yeah, fine. But I really want people to say, damn, that's a fine looking beer.

What's the light CO2 for, trippr? And when you do your second addition, do you have a CCV and dump the first addition, or just go with what amounts to the first addition going 7 days?

It's funny. As you know all my experience is from so long ago. I don't even know how much O2 pickup was talked about. We did have the Zahm & Nagel so obviously it was part of the QC protocol, but it just wasn't part of the "culture" to any great extent. Diacetyl sure was, and I imagine, is.

I loved my beers then and as I said elsewhere, I competed well. But I also know they moved fast, so I never noticed what would have happened even a week or two down the road.

 

[Beer Nuts]

I should add, I typically dry hop in a second, empty vessel for a short period, 3 days.

And, what do you then do with those unused dry hops?

 

[Beer Nuts]

If your DME stays hard for more than four hours, see a doctor.

 

[Jag75]

The light co2 tripper is talking about is during cold crash due to suck back.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The light co2 tripper is talking about is during cold crash due to suck back.

Oh OK, gotcha. Thanks, Jag.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'll add the hop flavor extraction is a function of time temperature and pH. So ignoring pH for the moment, if you dry hop cold you need to leave it in longer which also extracts more polyphenols from the leaf matter and can lead to astringency and grassy flavors. If you dry hop a little warmer (say ale fermentation temp) you can get maximum hop oil flavor with minimal grassyness and astringency and you can leave your dry-hops in there for as little as 48 hours and get tons of flavor.

As for pH, hop oils become more soluble at a higher pH so if your wort pH is too low you will also increase the amount of time you need to dry-hop to get the same flavor effect.

Whatever you decide to do though, just be consistent. That way everything comes down to recipe if you aren't changing a bunch of variables and you can simply adjust the amount of dry hops you're using in order to get the flavor you want.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Mad, this was more about cold crashing on top of hops that have already gone through a dry hopping period. My dry hop routine is invariable: 3 days at 70F, then crash. You may not know my story but I am an experienced brewer - worked for a regional brewery - but it was over 20 years ago, I came back not all that long ago. Had a fair handle on brewing science, and a lot of brewing behind me (I'll crow, to the disgust of everyone who's heard this: got 2nd in Midwest Region for strong scotch ale, slated for DC for AHA finals but my in-laws drank the sample bottles up, lol). However due to a neuro condition I've lost a ton of memory, focus sucks - words begin to go nuts on a page - so in many ways it's like I'm starting over.

So all this is preface to say it was invariable for me. Learned from Matt Brynildson and others at Goose Island, 3 days and crash. The only thing I am changing is the length of the crash. It, too, used to be invariable - 24 hours. I thought I'd play with extending it out a bit more (ultimately, went with 48 hrs and rack, which you can see above). Just curious is at this point there is any cause for concern sitting cold for _ days. Mostly because I was beat, and for me, that can mean something fairly profound. Came out well, though, very happy with it, so I might stay with 48 hours for awhile.

 

[TheMadKing]

Mad, this was more about cold crashing on top of hops that have already gone through a dry hopping period. My dry hop routine is invariable: 3 days at 70F, then crash. You may not know my story but I am an experienced brewer - worked for a regional brewery - but it was over 20 years ago, I came back not all that long ago. Had a fair handle on brewing science, and a lot of brewing behind me (I'll crow, to the disgust of everyone who's heard this: got 2nd in Midwest Region for strong scotch ale, slated for DC for AHA finals but my in-laws drank the sample bottles up, lol). However due to a neuro condition I've lost a ton of memory, focus sucks - words begin to go nuts on a page - so in many ways it's like I'm starting over.

So all this is preface to say it was invariable for me. Learned from Matt Brynildson and others at Goose Island, 3 days and crash. The only thing I am changing is the length of the crash. It, too, used to be invariable - 24 hours. I thought I'd play with extending it out a bit more (ultimately, went with 48 hrs and rack, which you can see above). Just curious is at this point there is any cause for concern sitting cold for _ days. Mostly because I was beat, and for me, that can mean something fairly profound. Came out well, though, very happy with it, so I might stay with 48 hours for awhile.

I'm sorry to hear about your neuro issue! I can't imagine

My post was more to point out that if you cold crash and leave the dry hops in primary for an extended period (cold), then you may still get some polyphenol extraction from the leaf matter but it depends entirely on time and to a lesser extend pH. So I would say go for it, but if you get astringency or grassy flavors, you might need to switch up that process.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I'm sorry to hear about your neuro issue! I can't imagine

My post was more to point out that if you cold crash and leave the dry hops in primary for an extended period (cold), then you may still get some polyphenol extraction from the leaf matter but it depends entirely on time and to a lesser extend pH. So I would say go for it, but if you get astringency or grassy flavors, you might need to switch up that process.

Great, gotcha. Thanks, MadKing, will do.

 

[couchsending]

I'll add the hop flavor extraction is a function of time temperature and pH. So ignoring pH for the moment, if you dry hop cold you need to leave it in longer which also extracts more polyphenols from the leaf matter and can lead to astringency and grassy flavors. If you dry hop a little warmer (say ale fermentation temp) you can get maximum hop oil flavor with minimal grassyness and astringency and you can leave your dry-hops in there for as little as 48 hours and get tons of flavor.

As for pH, hop oils become more soluble at a higher pH so if your wort pH is too low you will also increase the amount of time you need to dry-hop to get the same flavor effect.

In regards to pH.. I know that applies to wort in the kettle in regards to alpha utilization but once there is alcohol present and wort is beer doesn’t that change? I’ve been told by a few pretty smart folks that you just want to make sure that your beer pH is between 4.2 and 4.4 when dry hopping. There are some optimal chemical reactions that happen in that pH band.

Higher pH is good to a point. It can have some pretty detrimental effects when it comes to variables other than hops though.

You can also create some pretty nasty aroma compounds by leaving hops in the presence of yeast for too long, especially at elevated temps. I wouldn’t worry about 2 days at 35 but for those people that like to add lot of hops (especially high alpha hops) during fermentation it has the potential to create a lot of mercaptans which aren’t that sweet. Some people are more sensitive to them than others. It’s “overripe” or rotting fruit to some, vegetal and rotting garbage to others. I get it in a lot of hazy beers, and it’s nasty. Basically the yeast is getting coated in Hop oils and essentially exploding releasing all their nasty insides into the beer. I used to get it my beers that I would dry hop during fermentation and it would drive me nuts, couldn’t figure out what it was. Thought it was some form of DMS. As soon as I stopped adding hops during fermentation it went away. I think I am overly sensitive to it however.

The extraction of hop aroma can be quicker at elevated temps however you run into the issue of refermentation and diacetyl in your beer. Best to check for diacetyl before you crash anything.

 

[TheMadKing]

In regards to pH.. I know that applies to wort in the kettle in regards to alpha utilization but once there is alcohol present and wort is beer doesn’t that change? I’ve been told by a few pretty smart folks that you just want to make sure that your beer pH is between 4.2 and 4.4 when dry hopping. There are some optimal chemical reactions that happen in that pH band.

Higher pH is good to a point. It can have some pretty detrimental effects when it comes to variables other than hops though.

You can also create some pretty nasty aroma compounds by leaving hops in the presence of yeast for too long, especially at elevated temps. I wouldn’t worry about 2 days at 35 but for those people that like to add lot of hops (especially high alpha hops) during fermentation it has the potential to create a lot of mercaptans which aren’t that sweet. Some people are more sensitive to them than others. It’s “overripe” or rotting fruit to some, vegetal and rotting garbage to others. I get it in a lot of hazy beers, and it’s nasty. Basically the yeast is getting coated in Hop oils and essentially exploding releasing all their nasty insides into the beer. I used to get it my beers that I would dry hop during fermentation and it would drive me nuts, couldn’t figure out what it was. Thought it was some form of DMS. As soon as I stopped adding hops during fermentation it went away. I think I am overly sensitive to it however.

The extraction of hop aroma can be quicker at elevated temps however you run into the issue of refermentation and diacetyl in your beer. Best to check for diacetyl before you crash anything.

I think we are agreeing. I was just saying that chemical reactions will happen at a faster rate because all kinetics are increased at a higher pH. That's not to imply that its a good thing by any stretch. You definitely want your wort within the range you specified (I would go up to 4.9) for dry hopping which is why I downplayed the effect of pH on this process. If you do happen to have a high pH wort though, it will extract both oil and polyphenol compounds from the hops faster than a lower pH wort would.

 

[couchsending]

I think we are agreeing. I was just saying that chemical reactions will happen at a faster rate because all kinetics are increased at a higher pH. That's not to imply that its a good thing by any stretch. You definitely want your wort within the range you specified (I would go up to 4.9) for dry hopping which is why I downplayed the effect of pH on this process. If you do happen to have a high pH wort though, it will extract both oil and polyphenol compounds from the hops faster than a lower pH wort would.

So would you adjust the pH after dry hopping? I don’t think you’d want a finished beer much above 4.6. Huge dry hop loads increase pH substantially.

 

[TheMadKing]

So would you adjust the pH after dry hopping? I don’t think you’d want a finished beer much above 4.6. Huge dry hop loads increase pH substantially.

No absolutely not.. I was just extending your acceptable range from 4.2-4.9. There are some beers that can finish that high on their own. I would never adjust the pH of a finished beer unless I was trying to correct a major flaw or make it sour

Sorry for not being clear