How long does water need to boil to drive out the oxygen?

[HotbreakHotel]

How long does water need to boil to drive out the oxygen? Does anyone know?

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

theoretically... You can't "boil out" the oxygen in water... Its elemental make up is Hydrogen and Oxygen... If you boil out the Oxygen you technically don't have water anymore....

Now if you are talking about the type of water that is typically found at extreme depths of the ocean and aquifers, that still has oxygen in it, just not enough to sustain any aquamarine life... although there have been some findings of marine life that can sustain without oxygen in the deep Mediterranean

 

[avidhomebrewer]

Haven't measured it at all, but check out this link. Found on Google.

 

[Edcculus]

bowtie - he is talking about dissolved oxygen, not the O in H2O.


Hotbreak - are you trying to figure out how much is being driven out of the wort, or are you adding in water after fermentation and trying to reduce oxidation?

 

[HotbreakHotel]

are you adding in water after fermentation and trying to reduce oxidation?

I'm adding in after fermentation. We got a little over boiled on brew day with and OG higher than I wanted, and I thought I'd just add it back in with the priming sugar. I do this fairly often, but tonight it just dawned on me that I might check to see if I'm boiling long enough. edit: And yes, I'm aiming to reduce any potential for increased oxidation.

Thanks for the link, avidhomebrewer!

And yes, I meant dissolved oxygen, not splitting the H20 molecule.

 

[HotbreakHotel]

I read the link. Hmmm, maybe adding the water after fermentation isn't such a good idea. I was adding 2 quarts to a 5 gallon batch.

But then they don't say how long it takes for the oxygen to re-absorb into the cooled water. Because if it was immediate there would be no need for us to aerate before pitching yeast. So maybe if I cool it quickly and then purge the bottling bucket with CO2 it will still be ok...just thinking out loud...or I could just get it topped off on brew day.

 

[GreenMonti]

Maybe it might be more easy for you too figure out the correct amount to have in your kettle. Or turn down the heat some. How hard do you boil?


I don't think you need to worry too much about the absorption of the O2. In the bottling bucket your stirring all of the batch anyway. Which by the way is how the O2 gets into the water. Surface movement causes the exchange of gas. That's why people place air stones in their aquariums. The bubbles do nothing to aerate the tank of water. Its when the bubble pops that the water absorbs the gas. The same thing can be achieved by heavy surface movement. no need for the air bubbles. So by simply stirring in the bucket you create movement on the surface, introducing the O2.

 

[jbock220]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/04/2...ygen-with-chaz-benedict-beersmith-podcast-80/

After hearing this podcast I found your post as I was looking up people who pre-boil their mash water. I know a pro-brewer hear in Torrance (SmogCity Brewing) who does that. I thought it was to remove calcium, but it might have another (or a combined) purpose of removing dissolved oxygen for longer freshness (aka: hot side aeration).

I'd also like to know how long it takes to remove significant amounts of dissolved O2.

 

[grathan]

I've been thinking about boiling the mash water as well since watching that podcast...

I wonder if it is more the temperature that drives out dissolved o2 rather than the boiling action itself.

 

[fuzzy2133]

I listened to that pod cast and was reluctant to take much away from it. At one point he even admitted that he has no clue about home brewing all his knowledge was in production. He also had no data to back up his idea for boiling the mash water first.

Just my 2 cents


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[jbock220]

I've been thinking about boiling the mash water as well since watching that podcast...

I wonder if it is more the temperature that drives out dissolved o2 rather than the boiling action itself.

Well, I work with industrial boilers, which require dissolved oxygen free water (also demineralized). Super heated steam is run through it along with an oxygen scavenging chemical. I would say you're right, it is the temperature, but because that vaporizes the water, which then drives out the oxygen. If it were the temperature alone then industry might pressurize the water to super heat it like a pressure cooker, but they don't.

 

[grathan]

The link earlier in the thread says vacuum rather than pressure is ideal.

1.) Bring to boil (Longer is probably better, I wonder if anyone with a Do meter on Probrewer would know..)
2.) Either flush with inert gas or apply vacuum
3.) pressurize with gas as it cools.

 

[progmac]

i like to use distilled water when i need water without free oxygen.

 

[grathan]

Distilling doesn't remove oxygen.

 

[progmac]

Distilling doesn't remove oxygen.

that's quite the opposite of my understanding. of course, i've been wrong before!

 

[VikingChrisColby]

Water that has been exposed to air at atmospheric pressures has an equilibrium value of around 9 ppm dissolved oxygen. A vigorous boil can lower this to right around 1 ppm. I'm not sure exactly how long you need to boil the water to reach this level. When I've done high-gravity brews before, I've boiled for 15 minutes and it worked, as far as I could tell.

http://beerandwinejournal.com/expand-theory/

Chris Colby
Editor
http://beerandwinejournal.com/

 

[grathan]

The heat used in the process might remove oxygen, but as it cools oxygen would certainly get back in. I'm no expert, just going by what I've read yesterday. Keep hoping someone knowledgeable will chime in

 

[VikingChrisColby]

Unless you splashed or intentionally aerated the recently boiled water, it would take a little while for the oxygen to dissolve back into it when cooled. How long, exactly, I can't say, but it isn't instantaneous. If it was, we wouldn't have to aerate our worts (and aquarium owners wouldn't have to continually aerate their aquarium water).

Also, bubbling CO2 through the water will help drive out some of the dissolved O2 as well.


Chris Colby
Editor
http://beerandwinejournal.com/

 

[progmac]

i have always assumed that distilled water was chilled, packaged, and sealed, very rapidly -- but clearly i need to do some more research on the topic.

 

[grathan]

Even if distilled water were packaged oxygen-free, the hdpe container would let all kinds of oxygen in.

 

[progmac]

Even if distilled water were packaged oxygen-free, the hdpe container would let all kinds of oxygen in.

I wonder if anyone out there with a DO meter could take a reading from a freshly opened jug of distilled water?

I wonder if the best way to do this would maybe be to boil water, put it in a container that can hold a vacuum (like the no chill folks use), and then immediately rack and airlock. It seems like O2 pickup would be pretty minimal.

 

[grathan]

That would work. I was thinking boil in hlt, use herms coil to chill, carefully transfer to mash tun. My end goal here is mainly to experiment with a reduced 02 mash.

People shouldn't really bother with hide-side aeration unless they have staling problems with their beer and have exhausted all cold-side reductions. (unless your adding to post fermentation like OP)

My beer (kegged) hits its prime for like 2 weeks max. It takes me months to finish a keg though ( I have 5 taps ). I want to elongate that fresh taste to get a month minimum.

 

[fuzzy2133]

That would work. I was thinking boil in hlt, use herms coil to chill, carefully transfer to mash tun. My end goal here is mainly to experiment with a reduced 02 mash.

My beer (kegged) hits its prime for like 2 weeks max. It takes me months to finish a keg though ( I have 5 taps ). I want to elongate that fresh taste to get a month minimum.

Odd that you feel the kegged beer is only in its prime for 2 weeks (seems really short in general).

After the malt is crushed won't you still get pockets of air that introduce air into the mash?

I am not saying any one is wrong but unless you have a way to test the final product in a lab this could be one of those things that is all in your head as an improvement.

 

[rmyurick]

As a chemical engineer, and knowing what I know about chemical equilibrium, I would say most, if not all free oxygen is removed with a very short boil. It's dependent on the mixing, but if you are boiling, there's a lot of bulk fluid movement. Re-absorption of the O2 is a rate-limited process: i.e. diffusion--i.e. it takes time. So if you use the water immediately after it cools, I think it should be pretty free of O2.

I boil my water to drive out Cl2, about 5 minutes.

As for "distilled water" off the shelf--it's probably in equilibrium with O2, since I don't think anything is done to exclude it.