How long before Pediococcus starts souring

[Rijndert]

Hi all,

We had long time plans to do a sour. So recently (14-1-2018) we set out to do a graded souring. We brewed a saison which we fermented with WLP566 (Belgain Saison II). After two weeks (28-1), when airlock activity and gravity readings came to an arrest, we pitched in a package of Wyeast 5112. On 5-5-18, we added some pediococcus and some slurs of Orval to help the brett. At both timepoints we tasted the beer, so when adding the pediococcus we noticed the distinct flavor and smell of the brett. However, today we sampled the beer yet once more, out of curiosity, and we couldn't taste any additions of the pedio. So we are wondering what has happened and came up with the following solutions/idea's:

1. Pedio is a long-souring bug, we're just to jumpy and should give it more time.
2. The sacch and the brett have consumed all the sugars, leaving nothing but an empty stomach for our little friends.
3. The conditions within the beer are suboptimal, e.g. too high ABV or IBU*
4. Whatever you people could come up with.

*
OG: 1053, FG: 1009,
Temp: 22C for sacch, 18C for brett and pedio,
IBU: not known, but a total of 58 Soraci Ace on 20L, half of which for an hour.

P.S. We might plan to add fruit at some point, this is a discussion at the moment. However, it could bring the much needed sugars, if point 2 is the case.

Thanks,
De Leverunie

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hi & welcome!

Probably a combination of 1, 2, and 3.

Monitoring pH or TA will give you an objective indication whether the Pedio is producing acid.

You can add more sugar in the form of maltodextrin, fruit (fruit will also add acid), or fresh wort.

Optimal growth temperature for Pedio is around 22°C.

Higher IBU slows down Pedio such that it may take 2-3 months or longer to sour.
IBU can be calculated (estimated) https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pediococcus

Hope this helps

 

[Rijndert]

Thanks for the reply, RPh Guy,

Monitoring pH or TA will give you an objective indication whether the Pedio is producing acid.

This would, in our case, mean that we would have to open the glass carboy several times during fermentation. We do not have the supplies to purge with CO2, so won't it hurt the beer?

Higher IBU slows down Pedio such that it may take 2-3 months or longer to sour.
IBU can be calculated (estimated) https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/

The estimation came to a whooping IBU of 68

 

[RPh_Guy]

This would, in our case, mean that we would have to open the glass carboy several times during fermentation. We do not have the supplies to purge with CO2, so won't it hurt the beer?

The estimation came to a whooping IBU of 68

Sounds like you are already are opening it for tasting samples
Brett is known to scavenge oxygen, and is considered to be micro-aerophilic, which means a little bit of oxygen is good. Just try not to disturb the pellicle too much if there is one.
If you are bottling, it's highly recommended to take specific gravity readings 1-2 months apart to know that your Brett has reached maximum attenuation.

With that IBU it might not develop any sourness within a reasonable timeframe.
With regard to flavor, people generally don't like to mix sour with bitter. You could try adding food-grade lactic acid to a sample and see whether that works for your taste.

Cheers