How far will the flavor from lactic acid carry over?

[refect]

Say if I add 1.5 ml of 88% Lactic acid to my strike water. Then, pre boil I end up adding about 7 ml more of 88% Lactic acid, how much of that lactic acid flavor will carry over to the final product after it mixes with the mash and is boiled for 60 mins? I know the acid will survive the boil, but will the flavor of it boil off? This is for a 5.5 gallon batch.

The reason I ask is because I just brewed a NEIPA and added that amount of acid mentioned above to my mash and pre boil to get the ph close to where I wanted. I was shooting for a pre boil ph of about 4.8, but ended up at 4.9. Being that I had already added 8.5 ml of lactic acid, I thought I was right at the taste threshold for my batch size and did not want to add anymore.

The sample post fermentation was delicious, crisp, refreshing, with great pillowy mouthfeel, and extremely smooth bitterness that was balanced nicely with the sweetness. I did not detect any acidic flavor at all from the lactic acid. The final ph after fermentation landed me right at 4.24.

Now the reason for my question is, I just soft crashed the beer and am about to do a hefty dry hop split into two additions. Using Scott Janish's calculator, I'm predicted to be around 4.5 - 4.6 ph after my dry hop. I really liked how the beer tastes at 4.2 - 4.3 and I feel it could get a bit flabby and slight harshness with that higher ph post dry hop. I'm thinking about adding some more lactic acid (this is all I have on hand right now) to bring the ph back down to the 4.2 - 4.3 range if it does jump that high post dry hop and goes a bit flabby/harsh.

Would adding more lactic at this stage put me over the threshold to where I might start to taste it, given the amount I added during the mash/boil, or would the boil kind of diminish a lot of the flavor to where I can add more at this stage without impacting flavor?

 

[mabrungard]

In my opinion, adding 88% lactic at a rate of 1.5ml per gallon or less, is not going to be perceptible to most drinkers. On top of that, I find that the flavor of the lactate ion is fairly pleasant and isn't necessarily a beer killer. Remember that there are beers that are made with lacto and they're delicious.

 

[Agent]

In addition to @mabrungard comments, keep in mind that excepting for extremely talented tasters, the noticeable taste threshold for a pilsner vs a hazy is going to be substantially different.

 

[refect]

Thank you for the responses! I used the 1.5 ml per gallon to keep me in line with my additions to make sure that i didn't go overboard. Martin, being that I am at the top of the threshold already from kettle additions, could an additional 2 - 3 ml of lactic acid, post dry hop put me over to where I get that lactic tang? Should I look into going out and getting some different acid instead if i need to add a little to get my ph back down after dry hop? Lactic is all I have on hand, but I can make a run to the LHBS.

It is a hazy after all so as agent said the flavor may not be as noticeable on the style with that much acid?

 

[z-bob]

At 2ml per gallon I can taste it in the final beer, or at least think I can. In some styles that's good but for most it's not bad but distracting. So I switched to phosphoric acid for most of my beers. For German styles I use phosphoric acid to get halfway there, then acidulated malt for the rest of it. (I have extremely-high bicarbonate water) I'm not sure if it really tastes any different of if it's my imagination

I also sometimes brew sour beers with lactobacillus (and little or not hops), and the lactic acid tastes good when it's supposed to be there.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I brewed a "locked up" fizzy yellow swill recipe that I've brewed many times today and my late-winter water threw a curve ball at me, being a bit more crunchy than it should be this time of year.

No problem, I needed to knock it down with a larger than normal lactic addition, pre-boil. It also had a big series of late-hop additions, so I smacked that down with an additional lactic charge.

All told, I used 7.5ml of lactic acid to get 7gal of sweet wort into the fermenter. The wort was sweet, gin-clear, and smooth as normal. It's going to be a great beer, even if it did absorb a lot more lactic than normal. This is why I always brew with a pH meter.

Do not be afraid of smacking your pH down with acid additions, provided your water is capable of making good beer. As noted above, it's not enough to just measure your mash pH.

 

[refect]

I brewed a "locked up" fizzy yellow swill recipe that I've brewed many times today and my late-winter water threw a curve ball at me, being a bit more crunchy than it should be this time of year.

No problem, I needed to knock it down with a larger than normal lactic addition, pre-boil. It also had a big series of late-hop additions, so I smacked that down with an additional lactic charge.

All told, I used 7.5ml of lactic acid to get 7gal of sweet wort into the fermenter. The wort was sweet, gin-clear, and smooth as normal. It's going to be a great beer, even if it did absorb a lot more lactic than normal. This is why I always brew with a pH meter.

Do not be afraid of smacking your pH down with acid additions, provided your water is capable of making good beer. As noted above, it's not enough to just measure your mash pH.

For the longest, all I ever did was measure mash pH and just let it ride after. My beers have always been good, but I always felt like they were lacking something, or needed something more. Ever since I started playing with pH throughout the entire process, my beers have got to the level I've always wanted them to be at. It really can take a good beer to a great beer just by adjusting ph properly.

With this current hazy I'm working on, I'll check what the pH is after the first round of dry hops to determine if I might need more acid. I'm already right at that 1.5 ml per gallon threshold, so we will see if adding more lactic acid will cause it to show up and become distracting as z-bob mentioned.

Ideally, I am trying to get it to where I can adjust everything in the kettle so that it all falls in line later on down the road without further adjustment, but curve balls happen.

 

[mabrungard]

Martin, being that I am at the top of the threshold already from kettle additions, could an additional 2 - 3 ml of lactic acid, post dry hop put me over to where I get that lactic tang? Should I look into going out and getting some different acid instead if i need to add a little to get my ph back down after dry hop?

Well, you're mixing units since you don't mention what the volume of beer is. But it is possible that some tasters would detect the lactate taste...and possibly disagree with the result.

If you or others sense that your beers have too much lactate flavor, then you should employ something like phosphoric acid to avoid a lactate overdose.

 

[refect]

Well, you're mixing units since you don't mention what the volume of beer is. But it is possible that some tasters would detect the lactate taste...and possibly disagree with the result.

If you or others sense that your beers have too much lactate flavor, then you should employ something like phosphoric acid to avoid a lactate overdose.

Thank you Martin. This batch I'm currently working on is a 5.5 gallon batch. I did a full volume mash, so i started with about 7.8 gallons of strike water that was treated with 2 ml of 88% Lactic to get my mash ph around 5.4. Then I treated the pre boil with another 6 ml of lactic to drop ph as low as I could with that addition. I wanted to be around 4.8, but only got to 4.9 with that addition. I figured I was pushing the taste threshold, so I decided to hold off and just let it ride at 4.9. The sample of wort tasted very crisp with no noticable lactic flavors, but I still didn't want to add anymore just in case.

Would there have been any weird results with combining phosphoric acid to drop ph further if the lactic additions were already at the taste threshold?

 

[mabrungard]

Would there have been any weird results with combining phosphoric acid to drop ph further if the lactic additions were already at the taste threshold?

Shouldn't be.