How do you hit your mash pH?

[terwilliger]

I live in the North Florida area where we get our water from the Florida aquifer. As a result, we have a ton of lime in our quite hard water. My municipal water report doesn't give information about the important elements to home brewing (it mostly is a report of how our water doesn't contain pathogens - yeah, well i would hope not) and I can't seem to get the water keeper guy to get me the information, so I'm flying blind until I send a sample in to a lab. However, I know that the ppm out of the tap is around 150 and pH is 8-ish. Once the water gets to 170 degrees plus, lime chalk starts to precipitate out like mad.
My current method for hitting mash pH is as follows: Depending on the SRM of the beer I'm making, i'll use 70% tap water, 30% distilled/RO for dark beer, and 60/40 for lighter beer. I use phosphoric acid to get the initial pH down to 6.0-6.1 for dark beers, and 5.8-5.9 for lighter beers. Once I mash in, the grains will take the pH down to the 5.2-5.4 range I'm shooting for.

The last pale ale I made (85% 2-row, 15% 10L Munich) came out seemingly a little harsh on the finish. I'm wondering if I should make it 50/50 tap/RO, and if I would then have enough minerals for the yeast to do what they need to do.

How are you hitting your mash pH? Any comments/suggestions on the process I've ended up with?

Thanks everyone for your time

:fro:

 

[Yooper]

It's hard when you're flying blind! I got a water report from Ward Lab (it was $16 when I did it, but it's $26 now), and then I mixed RO and my tap to get it right. Most of my beers are 65-100% RO water, depending on what I'm making.

 

[k_mcarthur]

My water is really soft here in Atlanta, and makes good tasting beer. I wanted to start messing with my pH so I got a pH meter. Made my mash the same way I always have and was sitting around 5.6-5.8 on two brews. Talked to guys at my LHBS and decided to add 6 oz acid malt. Now I hit 5.2 without fail on all my brews, without affecting taste negatively.

 

[mabrungard]

Tallahassee water is fine for brewing as long as you are adequately neutralizing the alkalinity. I lived there for 14 years and cut my brewing teeth there. The water profile is fairly constant since its from the 'Floridan' aquifer. Its provided below.

Ca: 41
Mg: 10
Na: 3
SO4: 5
Cl: 6
HCO3: 168

Excepting for the high bicarbonate, it is a very good brewing water. Proper acidification is necessary. Lactic acid can be used, but phosphoric acid may be more neutral.

Enjoy!

 

[Blueflint]

"came out seemingly a little harsh on the finish"

Here in southern Ohio, I had that problem with lighter colored beers. My water's total hardness is 212, total alkalinity is 163. Get your water tested.

On my cream ales and similar light colored beers, I use 2 parts distilled water, 1 part tap water that was boiled and cooled (leaves some minerals behind in the pot). This made a huge difference in my light colored beers...very smooth now.

On my dark beers, the roasted malt does a good job keeping my mash ph in the correct 5.2 area, I can use part to total tap water for these, depending on the grain bill.

Tony

 

[DoWBrewer]

There will be a lot of disagreement, but I use 5.2 by 5-Star. I have really good results with it. I like the simplicity. I have many other things I prefer to work on than hitting my ph.

 

[k_mcarthur]

There will be a lot of disagreement, but I use 5.2 by 5-Star. I have really good results with it. I like the simplicity. I have many other things I prefer to work on than hitting my ph.

If it works for you then go for it. I find it hard to believe in a "one size fits all" water treatment. I used it on 5 or 6 brews and kept getting a salty aftertaste in my finished product, stopped using it and my brews are back to their wonderful self. Just my experience, but everyone's water is different so different outcomes with this product will be the norm.

 

[Yooper]

There will be a lot of disagreement, but I use 5.2 by 5-Star. I have really good results with it. I like the simplicity. I have many other things I prefer to work on than hitting my ph.

It might "work" for one in a hundred, maybe less. I'd say that it works for people that don't own a pH meter.

 

[DoWBrewer]

It might "work" for one in a hundred, maybe less. I'd say that it works for people that don't own a pH meter.

It does work for most people. There is a minority of people for which it will not work. However, I don't think Homebrewers with bargain basement PH meters are making accurate adjustments all that often. More often than not, brewers that mess with their water mess it up. It is highly technical and not necessary if you have reasonably good water.

 

[IslandLizard]

It does work for most people. There is a minority of people for which it will not work. However, I don't think Homebrewers with bargain basement PH meters are making accurate adjustments all that often. More often than not, brewers that mess with their water mess it up. It is highly technical and not necessary if you have reasonably good water.

Oh, this is going to be good...

 

[DoWBrewer]

Oh, this is going to be good...

It is not my intent to start a flame war If someone can show me data that 5.2 doesn't work, I will be the first to abandon it. By data I mean a large controlled testing of the product, not anecdotal evidence. Here is what I know for sure, i have tasted some really terrible beers where the water was adjusted incorrectly. The few people who have their water dialed in make some of the best homebrew I have ever tasted, but they are few and far between.

 

[LabRatBrewer]

John Palmer and Collin Kamopinski's book "Water" came yesterday. I read it last night. Maybe after I figure out what is says, I'll be able to answer the OP. That is a long way to say Subscribed to see all your answers.

 

[k_mcarthur]

I think taste should be your guide, if your water works well with it then brew on. But I don't think me telling you it made my beer taste awful is anecdotal, just means it doesn't work for me.

 

[DoWBrewer]

I think taste should be your guide, if your water works well with it then brew on. But I don't think me telling you it made my beer taste awful is anecdotal, just means it doesn't work for me.

Back to the OP topic, I have used lactic acid before but I wouldn't see why you couldn't mill say half pound of acid malt and toss it in as you test. Can't help much with meter, I paid $60 for mine and the probes can't be replaced. This is one of those items where you get what you pay for. Wait and save more to spend on one.

I agree, it should be based on what your taste. If it tastes good, who cares.

 

[orangehero]

You don't need large controlled testing, you just need to understand chemistry. Search for AJ's and Martin's posts, they break it down thoroughly why the sodium phosphate buffers in 5.2 aren't very effective.

 

[ResumeMan]

I don't know if I'm hitting my mash pH, as I don't have a meter. But I got myself a Ward Lab water report, and I use EZ Water Calc to model my mash pH, and add calcium salts and/or acidulated malt as directed by the recipe to aim for my target.

one of these days I'll go get a meter and see if it actually works!

 

[Yooper]

I don't know if I'm hitting my mash pH, as I don't have a meter. But I got myself a Ward Lab water report, and I use EZ Water Calc to model my mash pH, and add calcium salts and/or acidulated malt as directed by the recipe to aim for my target.

one of these days I'll go get a meter and see if it actually works!

Just as a thing that makes you go "hmmmmm", EZ water always estimates a higher mash pH than I actually get. Every single time. It's sometimes high by as much as .3 or .35.

I quit using it as a result.

I've been using bru'nwater for the past year or so, and it's always been very close to my actual pH. Today I brewed, and my estimated mash pH was 5.4. When I checked mash pH, though, it was 5.28. Not a huge difference, and still in the ballpark, but not as close as usual.

As to why 5.2 stabilizer doesn't work (and can't), that's been covered ad nauseum in the Brew Science forum area and I don't feel the need to rehash it here. However, if proponents can show the scientific reason why it should (or could) work, the Brew Science forum is the perfect place for it!

 

[mabrungard]

It is not my intent to start a flame war If someone can show me data that 5.2 doesn't work, I will be the first to abandon it. By data I mean a large controlled testing of the product, not anecdotal evidence. Here is what I know for sure, i have tasted some really terrible beers where the water was adjusted incorrectly. The few people who have their water dialed in make some of the best homebrew I have ever tasted, but they are few and far between.

Let's look at how this discussion should go. I would like someone to show me data that 5.2 does work. There are apparently no data or results to that effect.

For the person buying that stuff, wouldn't you want proof that it worked? The lack of information is what snake oil is all about!

 

[DoWBrewer]

Let's look at how this discussion should go. I would like someone to show me data that 5.2 does work. There are apparently no data or results to that effect. For the person buying that stuff, wouldn't you want proof that it worked? The lack of information is what snake oil is all about!

I would like to see data from 5-star. Having said that, there is a presumption that most products work because they are being sold with certain claims. 5-star doesn't want to be sued and are under some government regulation. I don't know that Star San works either, but I still use it with the presumption that is sanitizing my equipment. Really the only product that you can see work is PBW.

 

[Yooper]

I would like to see data from 5-star. Having said that, there is a presumption that most products work because they are being sold with certain claims. 5-star doesn't want to be sued and are under some government regulation. I don't know that Star San works either, but I still use it with the presumption that is sanitizing my equipment. Really the only product that you can see work is PBW.

Star-san works great. Five Star is a great company. All of their products are great. Except the 5.2 stabilizer.

If it works for you, even anecdotally, you could let people know. Say, if you had a pH of 5.8 before you added the stabilizer and then got a pH of 5.3, you could say it worked in that it dropped your pH. But I don't know of anybody who actually can even say that much about this product.

 

[DoWBrewer]

Star-san works great. Five Star is a great company. All of their products are great. Except the 5.2 stabilizer. If it works for you, even anecdotally, you could let people know. Say, if you had a pH of 5.8 before you added the stabilizer and then got a pH of 5.3, you could say it worked in that it dropped your pH. But I don't know of anybody who actually can even say that much about this product.

This is strictly personal experience, but my water starts in the 7.8 to 7.5 PH range. It has a fair amount of bicarbonate which would buffer and raise PH. Overall though my brewing water is pretty good. Typically, my mash will sit in 6 to 5.7 range (read with a cheap borrowed PH meter). The addition of 5.2 brought the PH to between 5.2 and 5.4 regardless of the grain bill. The PH basically doesn't move after that. I also add it to my sparge water. Again, I would like to see data from 5-star about the parameters of their product because it doesn't seem to work for a lot of people.

 

[pjj2ba]

5.2 works best for those with water that doesn't really need it. If you have hard water with a lot of alkalinity, it will not work - unless you go WAY of the taste threshold for the stuff. It might help if you have soft/softish water and like to brew dark beers.

I believe it is 5.2 in name only. It is impossible for a dibasic/monobasic phoshate buffer, to buffer at that pH. According to my Biochemistry LabFAx book the working range of phosphate buffers is 5.7 - 8.0. If you add an acetate, or a citrate, you could get the pH down, but neither of those is in 5.2

For the OP, it sounds like your water is similar to mine. Hoppy beers are a bit harsh, but it does age out - but takes twice as long as it should. My procedure is to precipitate the carbonates with pickling lime (Calcium Hydroxide) and let that settle overnight. I then pump it to my mash tun and hot liquor tank and adjust the pH down to ~5.4 with phosphoric acid. If I brew a dark beer I'll wait until the end of the mash to add the dark malts (so they don't mess up my mash pH), and actually will sometimes add back the carbonates I precipitated out to the boil kettle - I'm still evaluating that procedure

 

[tally350z]

I use Brunwater to estimate my mash ph and I recently got a PH meter and am still messing around with it. Normally I will mix 50/50 RO/tap. I get the RO water from publix and it is .30 a gallon. Next time you brew hit me up maybe I can meet up and you can borrow my PH meter and see where your at..

 

[mblanks2]

I have water that is at 7.9 ph and bicarbonit of 85. I used 5.2 on my first all grain and it worked with the grain bill I had by measure with a ph meter. My next all grain, different bill, the ph stopped at 5.9 even using the 5.2. Luckily I had calcium chloride and gypsum and made on-the-fly adjustments to get to 5.3. I've since thrown out the 5.2 and use Bruin water spreadsheet prior to any brew day.
It's not worth risking the time and costs associated with my brew day to chance.