How Do Commercial Brewers Ferment Quickly?

[DawgBrewer]

I'm very aware of the improvements my beers have made since I began leaving them on the yeast cake for 1 month. My question is... how do commercial breweries turn out their beer faster? Something tells me that they aren't waiting a month per batch. What's the difference?

 

[smokinghole]

The conicals are pressurized to a defined PSI using a valve. When pressure is higher than the set pressure it lets CO2 out but otherwise it just stays in there. The increased pressure discourages certain compounds of fermentation that need to be cleaned up afterwards in our case.

 

[WVbrewer]

They also pitch a large amount of yeast, and cold crash (usually) to get things ready for carbonation

 

[SnakeAnthony6375]

They also pitch a large amount of yeast

I would say they pitch the correct amount of yeast. I think most homebrewers under-pitch. So the yeast has to take some time to reproduce and show up to the party. Pitching the proper amount in the right condition (temperature, pH, etc...) will help you ferment quickly. At home, my fermentation lasts ~4 days. After that, it's simply more of a conditioning phase - dry-hop, cold crash, secondary, etc...

 

[broadbill]

I would say they pitch the correct amount of yeast. I think most homebrewers under-pitch. So the yeast has to take some time to reproduce and show up to the party. Pitching the proper amount in the right condition (temperature, pH, etc...) will help you ferment quickly. At home, my fermentation lasts ~4 days. After that, it's simply more of a conditioning phase - dry-hop, cold crash, secondary, etc...

I think this is the critical step^^^. They are most likely pulling off yeast slurry from a batch brewed one week ago and adding it directly to a batch brewed this today. Those yeast have not gone dormant and go right back to fermenting.

I'm also getting my fermentations done in 4-5 days. I think the "month in the primary" rule has a fair amount of wiggle room built into it.

 

[pcollins]

+1 to the above posts.

The key is definitely the yeast. Most brewers are selecting their yeasts for qualities of fast and clean finishes. Primary fermentation under brewery conditions can be nearly complete in as little as 2-3 days. They do spend time with cooling on to drop out the yeast followed by filtration but these are conditions that we can duplicate as well.

I have a bit of an ongoing experiment to see how quickly I can put a batch of homebrew through my system in a grain to glass fashion. I started the experiment a while back and got one through in 13 days but that was my starting point. I don't do it for every batch but I just kegged a beer last night that I brewed on August 5 and will be tapping tonight. It's definitely young but I have some friends coming over to brew tomorrow and we'll get some sort of a consensus on it.

 

[smokinghole]

Other thing to consider about their grain to glass time is the distribution channels. Often times unless they are going through beer faster than they can brew there is a supply built up. Some beers move faster than others. They get kegged relatively quick but by the time they are served they have conditioned further. Granted many of them are filtered so if anything is left behind by yeast it will not dissipate in the kegs or bottles. Some distribution channels take months for a keg to go out and come back. The wholesaler can order them and then it might take a while till a bar orders the beer. Then the bar has it for a while and eventually the empty comes back. Breweries basically need three sets of kegs for each account they handle in order to keep supply running.

 

[Yooper]

+1 to the above posts.

The key is definitely the yeast. Most brewers are selecting their yeasts for qualities of fast and clean finishes. Primary fermentation under brewery conditions can be nearly complete in as little as 2-3 days. They do spend time with cooling on to drop out the yeast followed by filtration but these are conditions that we can duplicate as well.

I have a bit of an ongoing experiment to see how quickly I can put a batch of homebrew through my system in a grain to glass fashion. I started the experiment a while back and got one through in 13 days but that was my starting point. I don't do it for every batch but I just kegged a beer last night that I brewed on August 5 and will be tapping tonight. It's definitely young but I have some friends coming over to brew tomorrow and we'll get some sort of a consensus on it.

Last night I was drinking an IPA that I made on August 3. That's common for me, but usually I am drinking a dryhopped beer on about day 20 at the latest.

I'll agree that some beers take some more conditioning time than others, but a well made beer (proper yeast pitch, proper fermentation temperature, quality ingredients, good water, etc) doesn't need as much time as is being preached around here. If you make a beer with good technique, a month in the primary is ridiculous.

 

[AnOldUR]

What I read into the often quoted statements in favor of a long primary is the condescending attitude that all homebrewers are noobs incapable of practicing proper technique.

Why it’s been distorted and snowballed out of control here should be the question.

 

[JKoravos]

With proper pitching rates and technique, most beers are done fermenting in 4-6 days and the yeast has done the great majority of what they are going to do in 7-10 days.

Keeping that in mind, if you have access to a centrifuge, a filter and an inline carbonater, most beers are sparkling and ready to drink in 7-10 days.

 

[HomebrewMTB]

The big reason for all the 3-4 week primary mantra is that it is better than the standard kit instructions that call for 1 week primary, 2 week secondary and 2 weeks in bottles. Also, it reinforces the autolysis myth is busted and the yeast cake will not cause off flavors. For noobs, leaving it longer is MUCH better than racking too early. Bottom line on long primary is that it can't hurt and might help. What's wrong with that.

Once a brewer has control of their process, measures specific gravity, understands pitch rates, can control fermentation temps, and has the experience to know when the beer is really done, then they can do whatever they want. Until then, three+ weeks in primary is not bad advice.

 

[Yooper]

The big reason for all the 3-4 week primary mantra is that it is better than the standard kit instructions that call for 1 week primary, 2 week secondary and 2 weeks in bottles. Also, it reinforces the autolysis myth is busted and the yeast cake will not cause off flavors. For noobs, leaving it longer is MUCH better than racking too early. Bottom line on long primary is that it can't hurt and might help. What's wrong with that.

Nothing "wrong" with it at all. But I keep seeing posts from newer brewers repeating this "At least a month in primary!" mantra and it's not correct.

It probably won't hurt. It might help. But it isn't at all necessary on a beer that is made correctly, and it won't fix a bad bad.

I definitely agree that the whole old notion of "Get the beer off of the yeast in three days and rack to a secondary" is best gone. But jumping into the other direction without science or credence behind it is just as silly.

 

[scottland]

A. Commercial breweries pitch the correct amount of healthy yeast.

B. They ferment in large conicals which place a large amount of pressure on the yeast. That pressure suppresses ester production. This allows them to ferment at warmer temps than home brewers, and still obtain clean flavors. 64* for us is like 68-70* for them. Warmer temps means faster ferments.

C. Commercial breweries cold crash their beer before filtering

D. Commercial breweries filter.

Those are the big difference between most home brewers and commercial brewers. Keep in mind that is their process for every single beer they make.

I also agree with yooper. If you pitch the correct amount of yeast, and maintain proper ferment temps, you can easily get most sub 1.060 beers into the keg in 2-3 weeks. I usually do 14-21 days in the primary, and rarely see the need to go longer. The key is to minimize off-flavor production, that way there is less that needs to be cleaned up.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I think the last time I deliberately left a beer for a whole month in primary was a 1.100 barleywine. I essentially never do this now. Even a saison with finicky WLP565 yeast was finished in 3 weeks (and likely sooner, I just didn't check the gravity before that point).

Typically, beers which don't require dry-hopping are getting gelatin and cold-crashing by day 10-14, and kegged after ~3 days of cold. Beers which do require dry-hopping are usually dry-hopped after 7 days, left on the hops for either 7 or 14 days, and then gelatin & crash-cooled.

Those beers, since they're already cool, are generally force-carbed overnight and ready to drink 1 day after kegging.

With proper process, there's no *need* to leave a beer in primary for a month.

 

[MacGruber]

How long do you suggest keeping a smaller 1.050 beer in primary for? I did a month primary last time to great effect, but I would like to drink it sooner. I'm doing a simple SMaSH tomorrow and now am considering leaving it in primary for a week or a week and a half, kegging, and hopefully enjoying it by the following week.

 

[pcollins]

Again, +1 to the above.

"With proper process, there's no *need* to leave a beer in primary for a month."

I think this is really important to remember. I absolutely can get grain to glass (with certain beers) in under 2 weeks. BUT... If I have stuff in my pipeline that I'm not going to get to right away, it does no harm for it to sit there longer. Right now I have two kegs on the go and four carboys at various stages of fermentation. Add one more when I brew tomorrow.

 

[pcollins]

How long do you suggest keeping a smaller 1.050 beer in primary for? I did a month primary last time to great effect, but I would like to drink it sooner. I'm doing a simple SMaSH tomorrow and now am considering leaving it in primary for a week or a week and a half, kegging, and hopefully enjoying it by the following week.

Your plan sounds fine to me.

 

[corkybstewart]

My ROT is a week after reaching FG-that could mean 2 weeks or 5 weeks depending on the beer. The only beers that need a full month in primary will be above 1.080 gravity or a saison that just takes forever.

 

[BulldogBrewer]

64* for us is like 68-70* for them. Warmer temps means faster ferments.

Stone says they ferment at the mid-70s. Their pale done in something like 3 or 4 days.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

How long do you suggest keeping a smaller 1.050 beer in primary for? I did a month primary last time to great effect, but I would like to drink it sooner. I'm doing a simple SMaSH tomorrow and now am considering leaving it in primary for a week or a week and a half, kegging, and hopefully enjoying it by the following week.

As I mentioned, if you have proper process, 1.5 weeks in primary should be fine.

The three keys I'd look for in the process to turn this around quickly:

1) Pitch below your target ferment temp by 2-3 degrees.
2) Pitch enough yeast. Make a starter if you're doing liquid, 1 pack dry should be enough in 1.050 as-is.
3) I'm assuming you have temp control and can keep your beer cool enough to avoid the yeast throwing out off flavors -- target ferment IMHO for most ale yeast is low-mid 60's.
4) Towards the end of active fermentation, let the temp rise to ~70 or so.

Steps 1, 2 & 3 are most critical. Step 4 is something I like to do just to ensure the yeast finish up their job happily after the main fermentation is over, when the higher temp won't generate off flavors.

Long primaries, IMHO, are workarounds for not properly dealing with process issues on the front end. If you're confident in your yeast health & control of your fermentation environment, 1.5 weeks is fine.

 

[LKABrewer]

How long do you suggest keeping a smaller 1.050 beer in primary for? I did a month primary last time to great effect, but I would like to drink it sooner. I'm doing a simple SMaSH tomorrow and now am considering leaving it in primary for a week or a week and a half, kegging, and hopefully enjoying it by the following week.

Just remember, yeast do not always follow your plan. Before bottling/kegging, take a hydro sample and taste it. If it does not taste ready, be prepared to leave it for another week.

 

[Toecutter]

This is the technique I use, and I am no expert, but it works for me, and my beers taste good. I brew mostly Ale's and Wheats around 1.052 sg.

1. I brew every third saturday, Ferment for 14 days Crash Chill for 2-3 days in the fermenter, then rack to the cornies, and carb for 1 week or more. This way my fermentation chamber is free by the 3rd saturday

2. I brew 10 gallon batches, so I pitch 2 packet of dry yeast. If I use liquid yeast, I do a 2 step starter, 1 liter for 2 days, then add 3 additional liters for 3 days. I cold crash the starter until the saturday I'm going to brew, then take the starter out in the morning so it can warm up to pitching temp.

This way I always have beer in the pipeline. I consume about 10 gallons a month, more if I have a party. I brewed last saturday, so I have a Belgian Orange Witt in there right now, and the WLP400 is going crazy.

 

[HawksBrewer]

This is another "for what's it worth" comment:

I almost always do a 2 week primary, keg (carb for a week or so), drink, and repeat. Never had a bad tasting beer, and most fermentation is done in 2-3 days unless it is a big beer, then maybe 4-5 days.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Stone says they ferment at the mid-70s. Their pale done in something like 3 or 4 days.

Yup and Anchor Steam is fermented for 4 days before it's bottled or kegged.

The key for some commercial breweries is simply scheduling the brews to replenish stock sold. If your sales history shows you sell 10 barrels of Pale Ale in two months and it takes 3 weeks from brew to package, you can schedule that in so when one batch is just running out you've got another packaged batch waiting to be served/sold.

 

[Yooper]

How long do you suggest keeping a smaller 1.050 beer in primary for? I did a month primary last time to great effect, but I would like to drink it sooner. I'm doing a simple SMaSH tomorrow and now am considering leaving it in primary for a week or a week and a half, kegging, and hopefully enjoying it by the following week.

As was mentioned, you can do it for a much shorter time in the fermenter. About 4 days after the beer reaches FG is adequate to make sure the byproducts of fermentation (such as diacetyl) are cleaned up. You still may need extra conditioning time, depending on recipe. Roasty flavors especially need time to meld, so my 1.054 oatmeal stout is much better with a bit of time on it. But most of my "regular" ales are being consumed by week 2, week 3 at the latest.

 

[HomebrewMTB]

How long do you suggest keeping a smaller 1.050 beer in primary for?

Leave it in primary until it's done. No more, no less.

 

[Germelli1]

I used to ask myself the same question, then I started experimenting for myself and found great results:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/my-minimal-primary-fermentation-method-bottle-carbing-1-day-261042/

 

[remilard]

The conicals are pressurized to a defined PSI using a valve. When pressure is higher than the set pressure it lets CO2 out but otherwise it just stays in there. The increased pressure discourages certain compounds of fermentation that need to be cleaned up afterwards in our case.

I've never been to a commercial brewery that pressurized fermentors during active fermentation, and I have been to over a hundred.

 

[sj_engr]

O2, stir plate, and warmer temps in the conical blast my beer into kegs. Just picked up a filter today. Love beer so much, hate to see it sit. (unless a lager)

 

[WVbrewer]

A diacetyl rest is usually used on HBT as strictly a lager procedure. However, I have found I can do a 5 day primary (usually s-04 in the 68 f range), then bring up to 75f for a few days as a d-rest, and I've got a very clean ale. I often dry-hop during the d-rest as well. It cannot be stressed enough to pitch the proper amount of yeast for this to work. You also need to use a fairly flocculant yeast, or you are going to have to cold crash.

To remilard....Not to butt heads, but the last brewpub I went to used a spunding valve.
Basically they carbed in the primary somewhat using the spunding, then transfered to casks for final carb. This helped to speed things along.... Of course this is not the norm for commercial breweries, but could work on a homebrew scale.

 

[oldschool]

This. detail, detail, detail.

Last night I was drinking an IPA that I made on August 3. That's common for me, but usually I am drinking a dryhopped beer on about day 20 at the latest.

I'll agree that some beers take some more conditioning time than others, but a well made beer (proper yeast pitch, proper fermentation temperature, quality ingredients, good water, etc) doesn't need as much time as is being preached around here. If you make a beer with good technique, a month in the primary is ridiculous.

 

[oldschool]

I know a local brewery that makes a very good IIPA with WLP001 and they are cold crashing on day 5. Why they dryhop cold I don't know. As a matter of fact I disagree with it but whatever. This is about fermentation not dry hopping.,

 

[pcollins]

I know a local brewery that makes a very good IIPA with WLP001 and they are cold crashing on day 5. Why they dryhop cold I don't know. As a matter of fact I disagree with it but whatever. This is about fermentation not dry hopping.,

If they didn't dry hop cold it would take longer. It's a commercial brewery. Time is money.

 

[Yooper]

If they didn't dry hop cold it would take longer. It's a commercial brewery. Time is money.

I think it's vice versa- it takes longer to dryhop cold than warm.

 

[pcollins]

I think it's vice versa- it takes longer to dryhop cold than warm.

In reality, yes. But this is "commercial" reality.

If you can combine two processes and achieve the "same" result then why not? They can cold crash (which they have to do) AND dry hop (which is optional) at the same time. They can still advertise that the beer is dry hopped and maintain their time lines while doing it. According to oldschool the IIPA is very good.

 

[samc]

I ferment, dry hop & cold condition until the beer is done. Every beer and ferment is different but in general most of my beers are drinkable by 3 weeks, seems to get better up till about 8 weeks and stay the same until done if any is left. Some beers with multiple dry hop additions taste much better early, before they lose the pop.

 

[hatrickwah]

There are many factors... pitching rates, temperatures, time, and CHEMISTRY. A lot of brewers will use additional products to expedite processes. Irish moss for the home brew, but more often its isinglass at transfer to aging tanks in the brewery. And NO, a brewery does NOT have to filter to get a crystal beer in a short period. 3 weeks with isinglass can have a nice resulting beer. No matter what the argument, there are a million angles to come from. I'm getting incredible results right now with liquid yeasts, about 7-10 days at 68 degrees, and a cold crash for 3-4 days at 43, while my beer isn't crystal at the 2 week point, by the time I'm really digging into it at 3 weeks, its awesome. Granted, my beers are your basic blondes and ambers usually, but when I can see the scratch in my nail through my blonde, I'm not complaining. BTW, no isinglass in my beer, just your trusty irish moss.

This brew was just over 3 weeks old.

 

[scottland]

Stone says they ferment at the mid-70s. Their pale done in something like 3 or 4 days.

Yup, if I remember from the tour, their conicals were either 300bbl or 600bbl. 9,000-18,000 gallons worth of pressure lets them get away with that. For us homebrewers, we have to go much cooler.

 

[ChillWill]

Depends on gravity. Cask conditioned beer in the UK (breweries I've worked at) will ferment for 3 to 4 days, put into bright tank with some finings and cooled (to around 45?) Overnight, then it's into cask for 7 days before sending off to pubs, although I'm not even sure they keep them for as long as 7 days sometimes.

 

[FoundlingOfDollar]

Well brewed beer, correct amount of healthy ACTIVE yeast and the correct fermentation conditions will produce quality beer quickly. I'm astonished that the "months in primary" flash mob has taken over this forum. Beers below 1.060 that spend two weeks in the primary (one week at 62 degrees and one week at D-rest temps) will turn out fantastic.

I think long primaries are pretty good advice for those of us new to to hobby. I have no temperature control beyond my house's climate control and a swamp cooler, and I am still perfecting many of my techniques including pitching rate and pitching at the right time for my starter to get the best performance. While this is still the case for me, a month long primary and a good long bottle conditioning help to cover the faults in my process. This is why I think you see long primaries advocated the most in the beginner's forum. It is no wonder that people who began in the beginner's forums and had a lot of success with long primaries will go out and advise in favor of long primaries.

I would be hesitant to call it a "mob" or a "takeover" when this very thread is flourishing and no one has yet shown up to tell you that you're "doing it wrong". Rather, I would point out that this very thread is educating members about other methods and processes. I don't think you could argue that long primaries are necessarily hurting anyone's beers, but here you are putting it out there that if people improve their process they don't necessarily need a long primary.