How can people possibly get super hoppy “juicy” NEIPA flavors so quickly

[Dcioni]

I often read people are brewing NEIPAs w 7-9 day fermentation schedule, putting into a keg, quick carbing, and claiming they’re getting fruity, juicy, crisp NEIPAs...Is this their own bias and somewhat they’re full of it? I am too harsh of a critic on my own brews? I am trying to get close to an Other Half, Trillium, Tree House, Hill Farmstead style. Where you take a sip and literally taste hop juice.

I’ve been getting way better and improving drastically along the way. Stepping up to water chemistry, moving to kegging setup and closed O2 transfers, improving my hop additions & dry hop techniques, etc. — my big catch is that it takes AT LEAST 5 weeks before they don’t taste somewhat bland or thin/watery. Again it’s probably fine or even really good to the common beer drinker but it’s not on the level of the pros I am aspiring to...

Any thoughts?

 

[BrewSomeMore]

I would agree. The beer is way too green, especially with all those whirlpool and dry hop additions. The malt is absent and the beer taste like burning hop particles. The beer does not get crisp and dry till after 5 weeks and malt is more balanced. Even with session IPAs it takes time to condition. 7-9 days tastes like hop sludge.

 

[day_trippr]

"Allow me to retort" [insert Samuel Jackson image ]

My neipa process is to start cold-crashing 10 days from pitching, keg two days later, cold-condition/carbonate for two weeks then tap.
They've been consistently wonderful and are solidly in the ballpark with the best of the New England offerings my sons and I have enjoyed.
I could easily double the amount of neipas I brew and not keep everyone satisfied. They are pretty much the total opposite of bland. I attribute that to the clone recipes found on HBT - and using English ale strains (eg 1318) as opposed to Chico or Conan strains - and applied LoDO techniques.


Cheers!

 

[gunhaus]

If you take a couple of pounds of the freshest, highest IBU hops, and boil them for a few minutes in some water to make an extremely strong hop tea. Then cool. You can make an NEIPA in 5 minutes! Pint glass - shot of vodka, shot of OJ, 6 oz water, top off with hop tea! Instant NEIPA!!! SORRY _ Feeling a little cheeky this am! Only kidding. I do not do NEIPA's - not a fan at all. I only do one IPA, a bit of a Two heart clone, but it does seem even that fairly simple brew takes a good 4-6 weeks to really get to where it should be. I am usually 14-21 days on the primary, and at least two weeks on the keg, and three is better before it really comes around. I too have wondered about 10-12 days grain to glass for such potent flavors as an NEIPA has.

 

[BrewSomeMore]

"Allow me to retort" [insert Samuel Jackson image ]

Ha! 1318 does not attenuate as much as Conan so it does condition a little quicker. Cold crashing does settle some green hop particles but still malt needs more time to come forward. I would agree I have used some great clone recipes and tweaked them from HBT.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I cold crash on day 5 and keg on day 8. I can sample on day 11 or 12, but it's got a lot of hop burn. The sweet spot stats about day 20 and holds for three weeks.

It's never thin and watery, just too much hop matter in suspension that makes it burn your throat.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

The hop burn you refer to is from actual hops particles your keg is sucking up. It's like fresh ground black pepper. You will get that for a while even using those superfine mesh dryhop cylinders.
The way you avoid that is using is floating dip tube (the Clearbeer draft system is one example).

Those of you aging your IPAs 5+ weeks are losing out on fresh hops flavor, as it is volatile and fades quickly once exposed to oxygen (even the small amount of O2 that is inevitably mixed in your CO2 tank).

Experiments have shown that much more than 48 hours of dry hopping is reaching a point of diminishing returns on flavor and aroma, andmuch beyond 5-7 days you gain pretty much nothing.

So, you start dry hopping at high kreusen (2-3 days post-pitch), dry hop again at the tail end of primary fermentation (5-7 days post-pitch) and maybe again in the keg (if you are using a floating dip tube).

Me: I transfer to my secondary/serving keg on around day 5-7 post-pitch and let the last few points of gravity finish in the serving keg (without an airlock - natural carbonation (spunding).

Cold crash for a day or two and tap that glorious fresh hops flavor.
I'm usually grain to glass 10-14 days for an NEIPA.

Most commercial examples (Heady, Treehouse) do the same - Treehouse is selling their canned beer in 10 days or less post-pitch and they recommend drinking it young while the hops is fresh.

Nothing good happens to hops with age - it only deteriorates.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

And I'm not trying to sell a product, but I cannot emphasize enough what a difference the Clearbeer system has made for my NEIPAs.
I used to have to throw out so many of the first few pints because it was full of the yeast that was slow to fall out of suspension and that hot hop dust.
I just got the Clearbeer and put it in my fresh NEIPA last week and it's a world of difference. I'm not throwing away those first pints - I'm just drinking amazing beer with zero sediment. There are also other similar products and DIY options as well.

In my opinion that is the ONLY way to do NEIPA, especially while young, without throwing a bunch away.

 

[Dcpcooks]

It’s completely reasonable to push out neipa’s in a short window.

Temp control is important for fermentation, I prefer 72 for Omega dipa yeast and 73 for 1318. Those are my two favorite yeasts for the style. You’ll drive peach and fruit at those temps.

You need to dry hop on day two and again at the end of fermentation around day 5 or 7.

A decent amount of wheat and oats in the grain bill helps keep it cloudy.

I crash to 40 and carb it the next day using a quick carb set up and start drinking it on day 8 or 9.

I use 10 gallon kegs with a bit of the dip tub cut off. With the larger surface area and the extra half inch cut of the tube I’m able to avoid the trub that makes it into the keg.


What’s your normal process for these beers. Thin and watery kinda point to your grain bill, what is your grain bill for the style?

 

[Azura]

IMO, hop flavor and aroma can improve with a little age. More isn't always better.

80% of my IPAs have tasted better at 20-30 days than 10 days. The 10 day old samples tend to have a more intense aroma. The older samples tend to have better flavor but still have good aroma. The best IPAs I've ever made used a minimum of 1# of hops per 5 gal and 80-120ibu. Most of them were less bitter than an old school WCIPA. Most of them did not taste good enough to drink early. Many of them tasted "juicy" to my palate at 20-30 days. None of them were intended to be a NEIPA.

 

[Smellyglove]

It depends on what you want from your hops. I find mine to be best at day three-four after kegging. There's still A LOT of polyphenols in suspension even after cold crashing for one-two days. I usually CC for one day, the transfer, burst carbonate it so the carbonation is there after five minutes, take a sip or twenty, then let it sit for 18hrs, pour out what's settled at the bottom of the keg, after that it's just like being in heaven. The nice amount of still fresh juciyness without the astringency which comes from polyphenols.

Edit: This is not about my NEIPA's but my regular IPA's which people mistake for being NEIPA's so the process is not far off.

 

[bobeer]

If you take a couple of pounds of the freshest, highest IBU hops, and boil them for a few minutes in some water to make an extremely strong hop tea. Then cool. You can make an NEIPA in 5 minutes! Pint glass - shot of vodka, shot of OJ, 6 oz water, top off with hop tea! Instant NEIPA!!! SORRY _ Feeling a little cheeky this am! Only kidding. I do not do NEIPA's - not a fan at all. I only do one IPA, a bit of a Two heart clone, but it does seem even that fairly simple brew takes a good 4-6 weeks to really get to where it should be. I am usually 14-21 days on the primary, and at least two weeks on the keg, and three is better before it really comes around. I too have wondered about 10-12 days grain to glass for such potent flavors as an NEIPA has.

I feel the same way about these NEIPA's. I wish they would just go away, haha. I think with these short turn around beers they probably use a starter so the yeast start eating away instantly. You're also supposed to start dryhopping around day 2 of fermenation. If you're on top of your fermenation and know exactly when it stops, and you keg/force carb, and you dryhop in the keg, I could see turning around an IPA in a week or 9 days. The NEIPA style is a hazy, nastly, looking mess anyway and there's so many hops in it that it will hide any off-flavors from not totally completing the beer making process, even if the beer wasn't totally done it would still taste ok. Even with the 8% abv these beers usually have with all the hops in there not much conditioning time is needed.

 

[Azura]

The brewer of Heady Topper thinks it tastes best with a month or two in the can. Can't remember the exact number, but it was several weeks from canning day. If HT is a good example of NEIPA, it's the only one I've tried. It's a good beer, but I've made juicier IPAs using WCIPA techniques.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

The brewer of Heady Topper thinks it tastes best with a month or two in the can. Can't remember the exact number, but it was several weeks from canning day. If HT is a good example of NEIPA, it's the only one I've tried. It's a good beer, but I've made juicier IPAs using WCIPA techniques.

Heady Topper was an early example, but is far from the best these days. Trillium, Tree House, Toppling Goliath, and Weldwerks are just a few off the top of my head that are brewing far better examples. Heck, there's a very new brewery in Iowa called Barn Town that's smoking Heady for NEIPAs.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

If you are having trouble with a boring grist, I highly recommend replacing some of your pale malt with a few pounds (I use 3 lb/5gal) of Vienna malt.
It really adds some depth and complexity to an IPA or APA grain bill.

 

[BNolt17]

I agree that a little bit of time is needed, but 5 weeks seems excessive. I have done 10 days grain to glass, no cold crash pre-transfer. Day 10-15 was definitely harsh, that hop bite that many have described. About day 21 it was perfect and stayed that way for about 2 weeks before the hop juice definitely started to fade. Still drinkable but a noticeable flavor change. I did not do a closed transfer and definitely had some O2 exposure. If I was looking to improve that beer the closed transfer is the first place I would start. As some others have mentioned, I'm not sure where the thin watery description is coming from for you, but I would assume it is the grain bill and possibly your water profile.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I feel the same way about these NEIPA's. I wish they would just go away, haha. I think with these short turn around beers they probably use a starter so the yeast start eating away instantly. You're also supposed to start dryhopping around day 2 of fermenation. If you're on top of your fermenation and know exactly when it stops, and you keg/force carb, and you dryhop in the keg, I could see turning around an IPA in a week or 9 days. The NEIPA style is a hazy, nastly, looking mess anyway and there's so many hops in it that it will hide any off-flavors from not totally completing the beer making process, even if the beer wasn't totally done it would still taste ok. Even with the 8% abv these beers usually have with all the hops in there not much conditioning time is needed.

To each his own. I’m a hop head as much as the next guy, but I’m in the camp that finds NEIPAs a refreshing departure from what West Coast IPAs we’re becoming a few years ago, which seemed to be a competition for who could brew the most obnoxiously bitter thing on the market.
In much the way that some complain there is no grain balance to NEIPAs, WCIPAs were in exactly the same place 3-5 years ago but just on the bitter spectrum. Most of the WC-Style IPAs that we’re getting churned out were mediocre beers at best with brewers thinking they could just throw anything together, Hop the crap out of it and call it an IPA and it would sell (and it did).
Now the same trend is going with late-Hoppes NEIPAs with probably 80% of what’s being sold being sub-par beer masked with a ton of hops.
But an NEIPA done right (Treehouse’s Julius being the best example I know) is a sublime thing.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

But an NEIPA done right (Treehouse’s Julius being the best example I know) is a sublime thing.

And FWIW, I am primarily a German lager guy.

 

[schematix]

Your problem sounds familiar and is pretty much what i experienced until i made some large process changes over the past ~18 months.

1. Mash - single infusion mashing has a way of making thin watery beers. Step mashing is IMHO necessary to get all of the key elements... attenuation, body and head retention. Hochkurz mash is one way to go.

2. Yeast - An large active pitch is necessary. Lag times should be only a few hours. You really want to be at FG no later than the 3-5 day mark, depending upon OG. This is easily achievable. Many people are probably getting this and don'r realize it because they aren't measuring the actual fermenter gravity.

3. Oxygen reduction - I know this is always a clusterbomb on HBT, but if you practice the hot side low oxygen methods you'll get beer that never tastes 'green' and consequently doesn't need weeks of cold aging to mature. On the cold side spunding in the serving keg will leave you with beer that has almost no oxygen. Makes a fvcking *amazing* difference in how well those juicy flavors pop and stay around. Closed loop transfer alone is not enough, it's just one element.

 

[Azura]

Heady Topper was an early example, but is far from the best these days. Trillium, Tree House, Toppling Goliath, and Weldwerks are just a few off the top of my head that are brewing far better examples. Heck, there's a very new brewery in Iowa called Barn Town that's smoking Heady for NEIPAs.

I've had the previously hyped Pseudo Sue from TG. Once from Iowa and once from their contract brewer in Florida. It's one of the most disappointing hoppy hyped beers I've ever had. A novice homebrewer can brew a more impressive Citra beer.

Trillium and Treehouse are getting the best ratings right now which often equates to being heavily influenced by local pride. The NE has a very large population. The NE has been jealous for many years because the WC hoppy beers ruled the ratings for so long. Trillium and Treehouse probably make good beer. Wake me up when they can serve the rest of the country.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I've had the previously hyped Pseudo Sue from TG. Once from Iowa and once from their contract brewer in Florida. It's one of the most disappointing hoppy hyped beers I've ever had. A novice homebrewer can brew a more impressive Citra beer.

Trillium and Treehouse are getting the best ratings right now which often equates to being heavily influenced by local pride. The NE has a very large population. The NE has been jealous for many years because the WC hoppy beers ruled the ratings for so long. Trillium and Treehouse probably make good beer. Wake me up when they can serve the rest of the country.

I don't think anybody was getting jealous of the "who can cram more bittering hops into a beer" trend in WCIPA - more like they were fatigued with overly bitter beer. I know I was. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and WCIPAs jumped that shark a long time ago (and to be fair, NEIPAs are at risk of doing the same).

 

[Dcioni]

Thanks everybody -- this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have. My typical NEIPA grain bill is more or less

70% Pale 2-Row
15% Flaked Oats
10% White Wheat
3% Cara-Pils/Dextrine
2% Rice Hulls

Typically mash at 150. pH Around 5.2 - 5.4
London III 1318 or Vermont IPA, Ferment @ 67-68 for 2 weeks

Closed transfer to keg

Water chemistry (adding some gypsum and CaCl) to try to get a more or less balanced profile w/ calculators.

Hop schedule is usually small bit at 60, then mostly 6-8 oz whirlpool @ 170F for 20min. Dry hop twice w/ around 3oz each, minimizing O2 when changing.

I just dont get the crazy/juicy hop punch that I do with commercial/pro NEIPA a la Tree House, Trillium, Other Half.... my beers tend to taste bland. GOOD but bland.

Some thoughts.......

1) Change my grain bill? Use Honey malt or Golden Promise?
2) Mash at 148
3) Add corn sugar to last 10 mins of boil to dry out a bit more
4) Adjust water chemistry more to have more pronounced hops/bitter/dryness, less malt flavor?

 

[Azura]

Your problem sounds familiar and is pretty much what i experienced until i made some large process changes over the past ~18 months.

3. Oxygen reduction - I know this is always a clusterbomb on HBT, but if you practice the hot side low oxygen methods you'll get beer that never tastes 'green' and consequently doesn't need weeks of cold aging to mature. On the cold side spunding in the serving keg will leave you with beer that has almost no oxygen. Makes a fvcking *amazing* difference in how well those juicy flavors pop and stay around. Closed loop transfer alone is not enough, it's just one element.

According to you, your lodo IPAs taste awesome immediately and still taste 90% as awesome several months later. I'm sure you believe that. My cold side lodo IPAs taste too bitter early and not exceptionally flavorful in terms of malt and hops. They do not taste green in terms of yeast. However, they blossom into something less bitter and more flavorful in the 3-6 week range. They get better with time in the short term and remain fairly stable beyond that. I have no interest in keeping a keg of IPA for more than 45 days.

 

[Azura]

Thanks everybody -- this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have. My typical NEIPA grain bill is more or less

70% Pale 2-Row
15% Flaked Oats
10% White Wheat
3% Cara-Pils/Dextrine
2% Rice Hulls

Typically mash at 150. pH Around 5.2 - 5.4
London III 1318 or Vermont IPA, Ferment @ 67-68 for 2 weeks

Closed transfer to keg

Water chemistry (adding some gypsum and CaCl) to try to get a more or less balanced profile w/ calculators.

Hop schedule is usually small bit at 60, then mostly 6-8 oz whirlpool @ 170F for 20min. Dry hop twice w/ around 3oz each, minimizing O2 when changing.

I just dont get the crazy/juicy hop punch that I do with commercial/pro NEIPA a la Tree House, Trillium, Other Half.... my beers tend to taste bland. GOOD but bland.

Some thoughts.......

1) Change my grain bill? Use Honey malt or Golden Promise?
2) Mash at 148
3) Add corn sugar to last 10 mins of boil to dry out a bit more
4) Adjust water chemistry more to have more pronounced hops/bitter/dryness, less malt flavor?

You are subscribing to the minimal bittering hop at 60 and the rest of the hops below 170F thing. Try the same hop bill while moving half the steeped hops to 10 minutes. Don't be afraid of IBU numbers. Dumping all the hops at a sub isomerization temperature makes a fragile beer that some homebrewers enjoy. Thus far, you haven't enjoyed it. Time to try something different.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

According to you, your lodo IPAs taste awesome immediately and still taste 90% as awesome several months later. I'm sure you believe that. My cold side lodo IPAs taste too bitter early and not exceptionally flavorful in terms of malt and hops. They do not taste green in terms of yeast. However, they blossom into something less bitter and more flavorful in the 3-6 week range. They get better with time in the short term and remain fairly stable beyond that. I have no interest in keeping a keg of IPA for more than 45 days.

I think we're talking apples and oranges.
The OP is asking about NEIPA, but you've said you are going more for WCIPA - different animals.

It sounds like you prefer yours once the hops have time to mellow out. It also sounds like you don't see a problem with waiting a few weeks for that to happen.
Given that hops aroma and flavor are volatile and fade over time (in your case hitting the sweet spot in 3-6 weeks), I would posit that if you A: wanted to enjoy it sooner, and B: currently need to wait for the hops to mellow out,
that you are using too much hops, most likely in the mid-boil range (10-30 minutes in the boil).

Bear in mind that many NEIPAs do not use any boil hops whatsoever and only start adding hops post-boil (bitterness usually being intentionally low).

 

[Azura]

I don't think anybody was getting jealous of the "who can cram more bittering hops into a beer" trend in WCIPA - more like they were fatigued with overly bitter beer. I know I was. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and WCIPAs jumped that shark a long time ago (and to be fair, NEIPAs are at risk of doing the same).

You missed the point. The EC has been jealous of the WC high beer ratings for a long time. Why? Because up until a few years ago, there weren't hardly any highly rated EC beers. Now, suddenly there are and the EC is giving them 5/5 ratings across the board. Maybe these newish EC juice beers are really that good or maybe the average EC beer ticker is compensating. The rest of the country will determine that whenever the EC can serve a much broader population.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

You are subscribing to the minimal bittering hop at 60 and the rest of the hops below 170F thing. Try the same hop bill while moving half the steeped hops to 10 minutes. Don't be afraid of IBU numbers. Dumping all the hops at a sub isomerization temperature makes a fragile beer that some homebrewers enjoy. Thus far, you haven't enjoyed it. Time to try something different.

This. I get 100% IBUs from 10 mins through WP. I started with only 60 min an WP additions and had the same "it's good but lacks flavor" issue that you're talking about.

I do a pretty big 10 min, a FO and a WP addition and target 50 IBUs in Brewer's Friend. Bland is not what I'd call these beers. I went to a local homebrew club meeting for the first time last week. Comments were that it was bursting with flavor/aroma. The old school, gotta-be-in-the-BJCP-guide folks obviously weren't thrilled, but everyone else was asking for more.

 

[Azura]

I think we're talking apples and oranges.
The OP is asking about NEIPA, but you've said you are going more for WCIPA - different animals.

It sounds like you prefer yours once the hops have time to mellow out. It also sounds like you don't see a problem with waiting a few weeks for that to happen.
Given that hops aroma and flavor are volatile and fade over time (in your case hitting the sweet spot in 3-6 weeks), I would posit that if you A: wanted to enjoy it sooner, and B: currently need to wait for the hops to mellow out,
that you are using too much hops, most likely in the mid-boil range (10-30 minutes in the boil).

Bear in mind that many NEIPAs do not use any boil hops whatsoever and only start adding hops post-boil (bitterness usually being intentionally low).

The OP wants hoppy beer that tastes juicy. I don't shoot for WCIPA or NEIPA. I simply try to make IPA that tastes good to me and a few others. Quite often the result tastes juicy. Sometimes it doesn't. I have already offered my advice to the OP that could improve the 'juice factor' of his recipe.

Regarding the rest of your post. Drinking the beer sooner in a short window of ephemeral awesomeness is something I have tried several times. My best IPA results require the following ingredients: a lot of hops, some malt, temperature control and a few weeks of patience.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

You missed the point. The EC has been jealous of the WC high beer ratings for a long time. Why? Because up until a few years ago, there weren't hardly any highly rated EC beers. Now, suddenly there are and the EC is giving them 5/5 ratings across the board. Maybe these newish EC juice beers are really that good or maybe the average EC beer ticker is compensating. The rest of the country will determine that whenever the EC can serve a much broader population.

I've only rated one beer a 5/5. I'm not from the east coast. I'm not "jealous" of any region or style. I do like NEIPAs. I buy them, I brew them and I love drinking them. I rate the good ones well, the poor examples with low scores. There are plenty of marginal examples because people want them and breweries are trying, not always successfully, to oblige.

As far as national distribution, it's not really practical for the style as they really must be enjoyed fresh. Shipping them across the country isn't practical so NEIPAs are, by nature, a regional product at best. The fact that breweries all across the country are adding them to their taplists and selling them out at record rates is a pretty solid testimony to their nationwide popularity. Weldwerks, for example, is in colorado. I don't think NE homies in colorado are pimping their ratings.

Oh, and if Pseudo Sue is the only TG you've had, then I can understand your "meh" reaction. It's far from their best beer. Have Scorpius Morchella sometime and get back to me (if you even like NEIPAs...if not, then...why comment on them). I won't even start on their BA stouts...

 

[Dcioni]

This. I get 100% IBUs from 10 mins through WP. I started with only 60 min an WP additions and had the same "it's good but lacks flavor" issue that you're talking about.

I do a pretty big 10 min, a FO and a WP addition and target 50 IBUs in Brewer's Friend. Bland is not what I'd call these beers. I went to a local homebrew club meeting for the first time last week. Comments were that it was bursting with flavor/aroma. The old school, gotta-be-in-the-BJCP-guide folks obviously weren't thrilled, but everyone else was asking for more.

This is really interesting.... so I should distribute my hops 10, FO, Whirlpool evenly and skip the 60..... you might be on to something.

What about these other ideas? Skip it or might be beneficial?
1) Change my grain bill? Use Honey malt or Golden Promise?
2) Mash at 148
3) Add corn sugar to last 10 mins of boil to dry out a bit more
4) Adjust water chemistry more to have more pronounced hops/bitter/dryness, less malt flavor?

 

[Azura]

This. I get 100% IBUs from 10 mins through WP. I started with only 60 min an WP additions and had the same "it's good but lacks flavor" issue that you're talking about.

I do a pretty big 10 min, a FO and a WP addition and target 50 IBUs in Brewer's Friend. Bland is not what I'd call these beers. I went to a local homebrew club meeting for the first time last week. Comments were that it was bursting with flavor/aroma. The old school, gotta-be-in-the-BJCP-guide folks obviously weren't thrilled, but everyone else was asking for more.

I'm glad you observed that. The best advice I can give to homebrewers chasing a good NEIPA is to drop all your flavor hops at 10 minutes and chill as quickly as you can at flame out. The super fast chillers may have an extra 5 minutes to play with either way. Use them wisely.

Dropping all the hops at 170F doesn't extract enough of the goods that remain stable. Don't be afraid of calculated IBU from 10-0.

 

[Azura]

This is really interesting.... so I should distribute my hops 10, FO, Whirlpool evenly and skip the 60..... you might be on to something.

What about these other ideas? Skip it or might be beneficial?
1) Change my grain bill? Use Honey malt or Golden Promise?
2) Mash at 148
3) Add corn sugar to last 10 mins of boil to dry out a bit more
4) Adjust water chemistry more to have more pronounced hops/bitter/dryness, less malt flavor?

1 - Honey malt will provide more sweetness. That increases the perception of juice. Golden Promise is a really good light bready malt that will increase bready perception and decrease sweetness becuase it's a little more fermentable than other base malts

2 - mash at 148 decreases FG, residual sweetness and peception of juice.

3 - corn sugar does the same as #2

4 - water is complicated, but the NEIPA people claim more Cl than SO4 is desirable.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

This is really interesting.... so I should distribute my hops 10, FO, Whirlpool evenly and skip the 60..... you might be on to something.

What about these other ideas? Skip it or might be beneficial?
1) Change my grain bill? Use Honey malt or Golden Promise?
2) Mash at 148
3) Add corn sugar to last 10 mins of boil to dry out a bit more
4) Adjust water chemistry more to have more pronounced hops/bitter/dryness, less malt flavor?

I mash at 152 because I want a little more body. Trillium beers are really dry so a lower mash temp is probably a good idea if you wan that. I did a clone that had zero flaked oats or wheat...just white wheat, pale ale malt, some light crystal and some dextrine. It was dry and tasty...scored a 41 in a local competition.

For water chem, I do 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate. I shoot for a mash pH of 5.3 which usually means about 2 oz of acidulated malt.

I'd save the corn sugar for DIPA versions where you want to increase the abv w/o increasing the FG. I did honey malt for the last couple, I can't say that I noticed a difference. I've also tried golden naked oats instead of flaked oats. That did seem to improve head retention, which is what I was going for.

The bottom line is that, for NEIPAs, the hops are the star. They're typically so up front that the grain bill takes a back seat. With the inbalance, the grain bill isn't as critical. Adding some vienna or using all maris otter is worth trying if you want to get more balance.

 

[Dcioni]

I'm glad you observed that. The best advice I can give to homebrewers chasing a good NEIPA is to drop all your flavor hops at 10 minutes and chill as quickly as you can at flame out. The super fast chillers may have an extra 5 minutes to play with either way. Use them wisely.

Dropping all the hops at 170F doesn't extract enough of the goods that remain stable. Don't be afraid of calculated IBU from 10-0.

I'm definitely going to try this for my next brew. Question -- what is the benefit of whirlpool hops for NEIPA, then, if they dont really contribute much flavor?

 

[Azura]

As far as national distribution, it's not really practical for the style as they really must be enjoyed fresh. Shipping them across the country isn't practical so NEIPAs are, by nature, a regional product at best. The fact that breweries all across the country are adding them to their taplists and selling them out at record rates is a pretty solid testimony to their nationwide popularity. Weldwerks, for example, is in colorado. I don't think NE homies in colorado are pimping their ratings.

Oh, and if Pseudo Sue is the only TG you've had, then I can understand your "meh" reaction. It's far from their best beer. Have Scorpius Morchella sometime and get back to me (if you even like NEIPAs...if not, then...why comment on them). I won't even start on their BA stouts...

Psuedo Sue was a top rated pale until they shipped outside of Iowa. That is my point here. I guarantee you thought it was awesome when it was an Iowa exclusive that got national attention.

Claiming a NEIPA can't be shipped across the country and remain stable is questionable. We already have at least one lodo NEIPA brewer here that claims his NEIPAs remain not only stable, but 90% as good as the freshest example for months. If he can do it, the pros can too!

 

[Azura]

I'm definitely going to try this for my next brew. Question -- what is the benefit of whirlpool hops for NEIPA, then, if they dont really contribute much flavor?

That's a good question. Hops dumped below 170F do contribute to flavor and aroma. They contribute a very small amount of ibu. Flavor oils extract slower at 170F than 212F. They also evaporate faster at 212F than 170F. It's a give vs take thing. The flavor appears to favor a hotter extraction temp in the 10-20 minute contact time vs a low isomerization temp whirlpool of the same time.

That doesn't mean there is no place for lower temp steeps. If you become comfortable with moderate bitterness, the lower temperature steeps can enhance the flavor and aroma of every traditional IPA or PA recipe without significantly increasing bitterness.

 

[eric19312]

On the whole EC WC thing I've been hearing that many many of the WC breweries are jumping on the NEIPA craze too.

 

[Azura]

I often read people are brewing NEIPAs w 7-9 day fermentation schedule, putting into a keg, quick carbing, and claiming they’re getting fruity, juicy, crisp NEIPAs...Is this their own bias and somewhat they’re full of it?

Any thoughts?

Since there is no universal standard for taste, the subjective nature of your question is hard to answer without an opinion. IMO, many of the really happy to be drinking a 10 day old IPA people do not have the same palate as me. It's also possible they are a lot less patient. I prefer to make IPA recipes that taste better with more that 10 days of age.

 

[Azura]

On the whole EC WC thing I've been hearing that many many of the WC breweries are jumping on the NEIPA craze too.

Sure there are WC breweries tinkering with NEIPA. There are also many small breweries from anywhere hoping to get a sales bump by brewing a trendy style poorly. I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell a lot more than all the NEIPAs combined.

 

[eric19312]

Sure there are WC breweries tinkering with NEIPA. There are also many small breweries from anywhere hoping to get a sales bump by brewing a trendy style poorly. I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell a lot more than all the NEIPAs combined.

Prob AB InBev Goose Island IPA does. But that’s distribution, not taste.