If it takes 30 minutes to chill 6 gallons of wort with my counter flow chiller, my 10, 5 and flame out hop additions get an extre 30 minutes of breakdown time. Would it be better to factor the 30 minutes of chill time into the boil time and add last minute hops to the kettle while the CFC is running?
Hop additions with CFC chill time
- Thread starter el_loco
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You don't have to because it's not boiling. Boiling isomerizes the hop oils. The water evaporating carries away the most volatile of the flavor compounds so if neither one of those is happening you don't have anything to worry about.
Alright, I'll buy that! I was under the assumption that it was simply the high temp. that isomerizes the oils. If what you are saying is correct then more soak time in the hot wort, as long as it's not boiling, will actually contribute to the nice flavor/aroma?
The stuff about isomerization and boiling is from The Joy of Homebrewing. I would say the soaking could contribute some good stuff in that it steeps the hops but probably at the end. That said, you could add that time to the start of the boil then add your boil hops at the appropriate time from the end.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
Incorrectly stated DD. Hop oils don't need to be at boiling temperatures to isomerize. They continue to isomerize (although at a progressively slower rate) even at 155*F. My question to El Loco is why does it take you so long to cool with your CFC? I assume your running your cooled wort back into the kettle? Why not just run it straight into the fermentor? You could fill the fermentor with cooled wort in about five minutes as opposed to 30, and the increase in IBUs would be negligible.
Respectfully, I disagree. I just wasn't thorough in stating the full explanation.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
Regardless of agreement, late hop additions steeping above 150*F for 15 minutes are going to contribute additional bitterness via isomerization and their contribution to aroma/flavor will be lessened. If you choose to slowly whirlpool-chill your wort, you might want to lower the bittering charge a tad to account for this, and perhaps consider pitching "flameout" hops five or so minutes into the whirlpool. My thoughts, anyway.
BrewThruYou
Well-Known Member
If you have cheap hops, keep throwing them in after flameout and see what happens.
It takes 30 minutes because I gravity feed through the chiller (straight into the fermentor, not sure why anyone would send chilled wort BACK into the kettle?).
The ground water temp right now means the chilling water is warmer than the rest of the year, which slows down the process. Also the water pressure isn't as powerful at my utility sink for some reason. 20 minutes is more accurate unless there is a LOT of hop trub. Well, the wort actually cools in 15 seconds or so as it moves through the chiller! It's transfering the entire volume into the fermenter that takes 20 minutes
The ground water temp right now means the chilling water is warmer than the rest of the year, which slows down the process. Also the water pressure isn't as powerful at my utility sink for some reason. 20 minutes is more accurate unless there is a LOT of hop trub. Well, the wort actually cools in 15 seconds or so as it moves through the chiller! It's transfering the entire volume into the fermenter that takes 20 minutes
The other thing I could do to speed it up is only chill to below 80 degrees. I slow the flow through the chiller to a rate that gets the wort to pitching temp (70/74) so I can aerate and pitch immediately. If I let the wort flow faster and just made sure that it was 78 or so on the exit I could shave some time off my chill. Then I can throw it into the fermentation chamber (cpnverted chest feezer) on full blast until it hits pitching temp and pitch then. Oh, and during that time I could run the straight O2 through the airstone to aerate instead of shaking the balls out of it! May try these things next brew day.
It takes 30 minutes because I gravity feed through the chiller (straight into the fermentor, not sure why anyone would send chilled wort BACK into the kettle?).
The ground water temp right now means the chilling water is warmer than the rest of the year, which slows down the process. Also the water pressure isn't as powerful at my utility sink for some reason. 20 minutes is more accurate unless there is a LOT of hop trub. Well, the wort actually cools in 15 seconds or so as it moves through the chiller! It's transfering the entire volume into the fermenter that takes 20 minutes
Similar setup equipment and times as I experience. I'm sure you lose a very small amount of aroma and flavor because of the high temperatures while waiting for the chill, and I'm sure you gain a very small amount of bitterness. I seriously doubt that these differences are perceptible to a normal person.
I work on the assumption that if the bitterness is inadequate, I add more bittering hops in the next brew, and if the flavor or aroma is inadequate, I add more late addition hops.
-a.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
"Whirlpool hopping" is a pretty common technique and some very well respected breweries (Stone etc) make common practice of it. It certainly does require a lot of hop mass, like all aggressive late-hopping techniques.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
It takes 30 minutes because I gravity feed through the chiller (straight into the fermentor, not sure why anyone would send chilled wort BACK into the kettle?).
The ground water temp right now means the chilling water is warmer than the rest of the year, which slows down the process. Also the water pressure isn't as powerful at my utility sink for some reason. 20 minutes is more accurate unless there is a LOT of hop trub. Well, the wort actually cools in 15 seconds or so as it moves through the chiller! It's transfering the entire volume into the fermenter that takes 20 minutes
Ah, I see.
I use a march pump with my CFC, so I can happily fill my fermentor in about 4 minutes. During the summer months, the best I can get out of my ground water is 80.0*F (regardless of flow rate as that's the water temperature). My simple solution is to sink the filling fermentor in a rope-handled tub filled with ice cubes and frozen gallon milk jugs. By the time the fermentor is filled and aerated with my aquarium pump/filter/stone set up, it's usually around a balmy 60*F. In goes the yeast, and the fermentor is off to the temp controlled chest freezer. Cold water will get your wort to pitching temp a lot faster than cold air. Just something to think about.
Ah, I see.
I use a march pump with my CFC, so I can happily fill my fermentor in about 4 minutes. During the summer months, the best I can get out of my ground water is 80.0*F (regardless of flow rate as that's the water temperature). My simple solution is to sink the filling fermentor in a rope-handled tub filled with ice cubes and frozen gallon milk jugs. By the time the fermentor is filled and aerated with my aquarium pump/filter/stone set up, it's usually around a balmy 60*F. In goes the yeast, and the fermentor is off to the temp controlled chest freezer. Cold water will get your wort to pitching temp a lot faster than cold air. Just something to think about.
I'll eventually invest in a march pump, but will wait until I get my single tier stand built. Until then gravity is my ally!
I suppose the cold water is a faster way to do it, but also more expense and more hassle. Not that it's substantial or not worth it, but I'm always trying to balance efficiency and time in my brew day. I'm more likely to brew two or three consecutive weekends if I can get it all wrapped up and cleaned up in 5 hours total. Plus the chest freezer on full blast only takes 30 minutes or so to bring the temp down to pitching temp. I've read that it's best to pitch at or slightly above the temp you'll be fermenting at, as warmer temps encourage yeast respiration. Not sure how accurate that is, but it seems to make sense. My veiw is as long as you can control it you can make it your *****!
The main reason I got a pump with my CFC is specifically SO I can pump it back into my kettle.
Why would I do this? A few reasons:
- Allows for a GREAT whirlpool (before turning on cold water)
- Leaves cold break in the kettle instead of the fermentor
- Allows for further cooling (ie, to lager pitching temps)
But most importantly, and the REAL reason I got it, is sanitation. CFCs are horrendously unsanitary without a pump... they are nearly impossible to sanitize well. In my case, I'm using a plate chiller, and it's even more difficult, but I've seen too many people start eventually getting infections BATCH AFTER BATCH until they add a pump to their setup.
First off, it lets me clean and disinfect by hooking up my entire setup (kettle, pump, hopback, chiller, and all connecting hoses) and recirculating boiling-hot oxiclean and then just boiling water through all of it.
But to make sure it's really nice and disinfected *right when it really matters*, I set it up recirculate back into my kettle, and for the last 5 minutes of the boil or so, I turn the pump on. The boiling wort basically disinfects everything - including the CFC which is by far the part most prone to harboring bacteria - and then when it's time to cool, if I just want to chill as it gets sent to the fermentor, I just uncouple the quick-disconnect on the outlet hose, turn open the cold water valve, and start pumping (or even just let it gravity-feed at that point!). Honestly, if I hadn't had the money at the time to get a pump as well, I would have skipped the CFC until I could. But a pump is incredibly useful for so many other things as well... it was just a fantastic purchase.
Why would I do this? A few reasons:
- Allows for a GREAT whirlpool (before turning on cold water)
- Leaves cold break in the kettle instead of the fermentor
- Allows for further cooling (ie, to lager pitching temps)
But most importantly, and the REAL reason I got it, is sanitation. CFCs are horrendously unsanitary without a pump... they are nearly impossible to sanitize well. In my case, I'm using a plate chiller, and it's even more difficult, but I've seen too many people start eventually getting infections BATCH AFTER BATCH until they add a pump to their setup.
First off, it lets me clean and disinfect by hooking up my entire setup (kettle, pump, hopback, chiller, and all connecting hoses) and recirculating boiling-hot oxiclean and then just boiling water through all of it.
But to make sure it's really nice and disinfected *right when it really matters*, I set it up recirculate back into my kettle, and for the last 5 minutes of the boil or so, I turn the pump on. The boiling wort basically disinfects everything - including the CFC which is by far the part most prone to harboring bacteria - and then when it's time to cool, if I just want to chill as it gets sent to the fermentor, I just uncouple the quick-disconnect on the outlet hose, turn open the cold water valve, and start pumping (or even just let it gravity-feed at that point!). Honestly, if I hadn't had the money at the time to get a pump as well, I would have skipped the CFC until I could. But a pump is incredibly useful for so many other things as well... it was just a fantastic purchase.
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