Honey or Candi Syrup, Inc in place of Invert Sugar?

[shoreman]

Have any of you use honey or Candi Syrup (Simplicity, D90, etc) in place of Invert Sugar with success? Specifically in British Milds & Bitters.

I'm not really looking to recreate historical recipes, but would like to dry the these beers out a bit which I know can be done with corn or cane sugar, but in my Belgian beers there is a big difference in using Candi Syrup vs corn or cane - incredible flavors in Dubbels with D90.

I'm really not interested in creating invert sugar, I know it can be done.

 

[Vale71]

If your goal is to replace invert sugar (which is basically just sugar and therefore tasteless once fermented out) I definitely wouldn't sub with D90 as that adds a whole lot of taste to the finished beer.
Simplicity is AFAIK just invert sugar so you're not really substituting anything by going that route.

 

[shoreman]

If your goal is to replace invert sugar (which is basically just sugar and therefore tasteless once fermented out) I definitely wouldn't sub with D90 as that adds a whole lot of taste to the finished beer.
Simplicity is AFAIK just invert sugar so you're not really substituting anything by going that route.

The main difference in Candi Syrup in that it is made with Beet Sugar whereas Invert is generally Cane Sugar.

 

[Vale71]

They're both refined sugars, they're made of 99.99% sucrose and hence absolutely identical regardless of which plant the sap was extracted from.

 

[Robert65]

I must disagree on a couple of points.

I've made and used a fair bit of Invert. It lends a very distinctive flavor which is a defining characteristic of many British beers. The difference between British invert and the Belgian products lies in the process. Belgian candi syrup is prepared from fully refined (cane or beet) sugar with a source of aminos at a pH above neutral and allowed to form specific Maillard products, before acidification for inversion, leading to a unique flavor. The British product is prepared entirely at a low pH from partially refined or unrefined sugar and is therefore simply inverted sugar deriving its flavor primarily from concentration of the native flavors of raw cane sugar and some caramelization.

If I had to choose one of the proposed options as a substitute, I think I'd go with honey. But another (I think better) option would simply be a less refined cane sugar like Demerara. It will largely invert to full fermentability during the boil, and will contribute some of the characteristic cane flavor. It has a long history in British brewing, the choice of liquid or solid sugars by a brewer being partially process determined .

 

[shoreman]

Thanks for the info Robert, I didn’t think of demerera sugar and that sounds like a good compromise.

 

[Robert65]

Thanks for the info Robert, I didn’t think of demerera sugar and that sounds like a good compromise.

It is also easier to measure and handle.

 

[Vale71]

I must disagree on a couple of points.

I've made and used a fair bit of Invert. It lends a very distinctive flavor which is a defining characteristic of many British beers. The difference between British invert and the Belgian products lies in the process. Belgian candi syrup is prepared from fully refined (cane or beet) sugar with a source of aminos at a pH above neutral and allowed to form specific Maillard products, before acidification for inversion, leading to a unique flavor. The British product is prepared entirely at a low pH from partially refined or unrefined sugar and is therefore simply inverted sugar deriving its flavor primarily from concentration of the native flavors of raw cane sugar and some caramelization.

That is certainly true of the darker Candi products, but Simplicity is just simple invert sugar. You just can't get Maillard reactions and still maintain a 1°L color.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Another option is to use Golden Syrup. It is essentially a light-coloured invert syrup and is often (or was often? maybe not so much anymore) used in British brewing. Use a proper golden syrup like 'Lyles' (which is commonly available) rather than a simple sugar syrup with flavouring added as some cheap ones are.

 

[Robert65]

Another option is to use Golden Syrup. It is essentially a light-coloured invert syrup and is often (or was often? maybe not so much anymore) used in British brewing. Use a proper golden syrup like 'Lyles' (which is commonly available) rather than a simple sugar syrup with flavouring added as some cheap ones are.

Homebrew myth. Lyles Golden Syrup is only partially inverted and is made from white sugar. Brewers' Invert products are fully inverted and made from raw cane sugar. Lyles will provide fermentables but not the desired flavor and color. (The lightest of the British inverts, no. 1, has an SRM around 16, not 1 or 2 like Lyles.) Simplicity will similarly dry out a beer but add no character, which is what you want in a Belgian golden ale or tripel perhaps but not in a British ale.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Homebrew myth. Lyles Golden Syrup is only partially inverted and is made from white sugar.

Yes and no. Lyles golden syrup is made from a byproduct of sugar manufacturing (not white sugar), something like sweet molasses. Half of it is inverted. Some of the cheap products are just partially inverted white sugar, or flavouring mixed in to simple syrup. I'm not sure which bit you're saying is a myth?

Brewers' Invert products are fully inverted and made from raw cane sugar. Lyles will provide fermentables but not the desired flavor and color. (The lightest of the British inverts, no. 1, has an SRM around 16, not 1 or 2 like Lyles.)

Lyles Golden syrup is a type of invert product. It isn't directly the same as the type you are talking about, and is more pale in colour, but still gives some of the same flavours (unlike white sugar or simplicity). It can be darkened and give more of the invert type flavours by blending with some food grade molasses (but still won't quite be the same). It gives stronger flavour and more colour than raw sugar.

 

[Robert65]

There was a longstanding belief among homebrewers that Lyles was exactly the stuff properly used in British ales, but it is not of course. It may well give a flavor different from white sugar, but is much lighter in color and flavor than the actual brewing sugars. I have tried the hack of adding molasses to Lyles, and found the results unsatisfactory. You just don't get the same flavor that is produced in the process of inverting raw sugar. There is no substitute for the real thing IME. But unrefined cane sugar does come closer than Lyles + molasses, and is so easy, that if I didn't have Invert handy, it would be my choice.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've only used it once (Lyle's golden syrup; in a best bitter), so take this FWIW. The flavour was strong, far stronger than I've had with raw sugar. Actually, I found the flavour to be stronger than invert syrups. It isn't the same flavour though (it's more 'burnt caramelly' to my tastes) and invert syrups are so easy to make from raw sugar (like you say) that I always go that route if I want some simple sugars in a British ale.

 

[kevin58]

I can't speak to the chemistry or make up of sugars but I do know that I get a flavor far different... and better imho... using invert over candi. It's very simple to make, a box of sugar-in-the-raw, some citric acid and a candy thermometer are all you need.

 

[Robert65]

I can't speak to the chemistry or make up of sugars but I do know that I get a flavor far different... and better imho... using invert over candi. It's very simple to make, a box of sugar-in-the-raw, some citric acid and a candy thermometer are all you need.

And if you want the darker nos. 2-4, it's even dead easier if you use the "oven method." Having determined proper temperature regulation so that your oven temperature will swing (as it will) centered right on 240°F (never, ever trust an oven's thermostat,) once you've brought your syrup to 240°F, set it tightly covered in the oven. Then just walk away for the requisite number of hours to achieve the desired color. It's also easier if you make a larger batch rather than a single brew's worth. In sealed Mason jars it will keep indefinitely.

 

[kevin58]

And if you want the darker nos. 2-4, it's even dead easier if you use the "oven method." Having determined proper temperature regulation so that your oven temperature will swing (as it will) centered right on 240°F (never, ever trust an oven's thermostat,) once you've brought your syrup to 240°F, set it tightly covered in the oven. Then just walk away for the requisite number of hours to achieve the desired color. It's also easier if you make a larger batch rather than a single brew's worth. In sealed Mason jars it will keep indefinitely.

Agreed. I was trying not to get too deep in the weeds but that's exactly what I do... Oven at 240° and I usually make about 5lbs per batch and store them in pint mason jars at 1lb per jar.

 

[Robert65]

Agreed. I was trying not to get too deep in the weeds but that's exactly what I do... Oven at 240° and I usually make about 5lbs per batch and store them in pint mason jars at 1lb per jar.

I have one slight variation on that. I divide the finished syrup equally by weight (easiest way to measure it out accurately) in Mason jars. So rather than having a given weight of syrup in each jar, dividing the original weight of raw sugar by the number of jars, I know exactly how much sugar each jar represents, making it easy to figure out what it will contribute to a batch of wort. (Conveniently, 1 lb sugar makes one full pint Mason jar, just enough headspace for the lid to vacuum seal.)

 

[kevin58]

Kind of what I said but yeah, OK.