home brewer laws

[woozy]

I don't think my scenario is breaking either the spirit or the letter of the law. I'm allowed to brew 100 gallons of beer. It doesn't really matter where. If six of us pitched in together for expensive equipment and we drew lots as to where to keep it and Fred drew the long straw, then I can brew 100 gallons while I'm hanging out with my good buddy Fred. ... but if I do, I can't brew any more beer at my own home. Likewise if I go to a brew making class a the brewstore over the hill and as an end product of the class we each make 5 gallons to take home, then that counts towards my 100 gallons.

What *does* seem like a kind of weird loophole is that if I have a room-mate than I'm allowed to make 200 gallons at my good buddy Fred's house. But it's not *that* weird. It's communal property biz. If I make 200 gallons at Fred's house, then my roommate George can't make any beer anywhere.

As for removing beer from the brew on premise, I think the spirit of the law is that the law *wants* us to remove all the beer from Fred's house. If you let Fred keep the 400 (or was it 800) gallons of beer then it seems that Fred is violating the law and used his friends as a cover. If the friends remove the beer to their own houses then ... well, it's just four guys making beer.

Of course, "personal consumption" is weird. I don't have to drink the 100 gallons all by myself. I can give them to friends. I can give them to Fred. I can give them *all* to Fred. ****ing Fred! What'd he do to deserve all my beer?!? He better pay taxes on them. They're my ****ing beer!

 

[woozy]

Mike: Hey, roomie! You all unpacked?

Jim: Pretty much. I think I'm going to like living here. It's really important that I have common interests with my room-mates so when I found out you were all home-brewers that clinched it for me.

Mike: Yeah! Homebrew rules! *[makes devil horns with his hands and bangs his head back and forth]*

Jim: .. uh... yeah... whatever. Say! Where's all your beer? Where's all your equipment?

Mike: Oh, we've never brewed anything here.

Jim: But, I thought...

Mike: You see, I like to hang out Fred's house. I've brewed 50 gallons this year at Fred's house. And Josephine likes to brew at Sid's house. She's done 70 gallons this year so far. And Sam belongs to a brew club. Each week they meet at the LHBS and brew. He's done 80 gallons this year.

Jim: Well, I got my equipment here. What say we brew up a batch of my famous Jim's Imperial Stout Mostly? Oh, yeah, there's nothing like getting my hands on my equipment and whipping out a batch of frothy JISM, I tell you...

Mike: Oh, you can't do that.

Jim: What? Why not?

Mike: We've exceeded our household limit. You see I've done 50 gallons and Josephine's done 70 and Sam's done 80 and that adds up to...

Jim: *blinks... wimpers ... collapses to floor*

 

[ACbrewer]

That begs the 'what is a household' for terms of the brewing law? Different families at the same address? are they serveral different 'housholds'. Given that you do all your taxes seperately I'd say yes spereate households. And yet easiest way of defining houshold, who lives in the house/appartment/condo/igloo/cave?

I'm guessing since you have to report overages on your taxes (25.207) that unless you are living like some polyamourous group you are seperate households. (geeze, went from legal issues on beer to poly amourousness.. get your post in now before the thread gets locked!). But again, what do I know about how this law is interpereted.

 

[MaxStout]

That begs the 'what is a household' for terms of the brewing law? Different families at the same address? are they serveral different 'housholds'. Given that you do all your taxes seperately I'd say yes spereate households. And yet easiest way of defining houshold, who lives in the house/appartment/condo/igloo/cave?

I'm guessing since you have to report overages on your taxes (25.207) that unless you are living like some polyamourous group you are seperate households. (geeze, went from legal issues on beer to poly amourousness.. get your post in now before the thread gets locked!). But again, what do I know about how this law is interpereted.

I think the interpretation of "household" in the statute would be your domicile, a legal term of art that defines your permanent residence in a particular jurisdiction.

The 200 gallon max per household would apply regardless of who lives there. You could have friends, relatives, polyamourous groups, etc., residing there, but the statute still caps it at 200 with 2 or more adults.


27 CFR 25.205 - Production.

§ 25.205

Production.

(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.

(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:

(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or

(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.

 

[pfgonzo]

Nod. Always read the actual text of the law.

Your local laws may further limit production, or define certain terms like "household" (as the Federal regulations in fact do).

CA for example states:

Business & Professions Code § 23356.2.
(a) No license or permit shall be required for the manufacture of beer for personal or family use, and not for sale, by a person over 21 years of age. The aggregate amount of beer with respect to any household shall not exceed (1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults in the household or (2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult in the household.

(b) No license or permit shall be required for the manufacture of wine for personal or family use, and not for sale, by a person over 21 years of age. The aggregate amount of wine with respect to any household shall not exceed (1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults in the household or (2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult in the household.

(c) Any beer manufactured pursuant to this section may be removed from the premises where manufactured for use in competition at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, including homemakers’ contests, tastings, or judgings.

(d) Any wine made pursuant to this section may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use, including use at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, such as homemakers’ contests, tastings, or judgings. Wine used under this section shall not be sold or offered for sale.

(e) Except as provided herein, nothing in this section authorizes any activity in violation of Section 23300, 23355, or 23399.1.

Note the "dozen roommates" argument doesn't work here... or under the CFR, as MaxStout posted above.

 

[woozy]

Hmmm....

Definition of household varies from region to region. In some cases a married couple could have seperate addresses but count as a single household. Families can rent out a room and the tenant would not be considered a member of the household but some jurisdiction do allow for live in servants. Some laws define a "head" of household and boy does that seem archiac. When I used to have roommates it was usually a loose collection sharing a lease and I always thought of it as a single household yet I suppose it wouldn't legally be so (well, maybe as there is one lease-holder "head").

But most laws seem to allow for two households in one address (example; two families living in the same house.)

So I think my roomate scenario wouldn't hold up and four roommates making beer on their own would count as four separate households. Well, someone would have to complain first and then one would plead one's case.

I don't think you can plead separate households if file taxes jointly but I *don't* think filing taxes separately can separate households. (Ex. an adult child living at with his parents.)

Actually the whole thing seems really ambiguous.

 

[ACbrewer]

I quoted earlier 25.205 AND 25.206 and 25.207. Between 206 and 207 there is evidence that you can 'home brew' not in your home, particuarly since 207 mentions removing the beer from the brewery for personal use. take a look at 25.207
§ 25.207 Removal from brewery for personal or family use.
Any adult, as defined in § 25.205, who operates a brewery under this part as an individual owner or in partnership with others, may remove beer from the brewery without payment of tax for personal or family use. The amount of beer removed for each household, without payment of tax, per calendar year may not exceed 100 gallons if there is one adult residing in the household or 200 gallons if there are two or more adults residing in the household. Beer removed in excess of the above limitations will be reported as a taxable removal.

Implication is that the brewery is not the domicile. Thus we get back to 'what does household mean.' found this on the web "The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) defines a member of household as a person who is related to you or lives with you for the entire year as a member of your household" Which is odd, do roomates now need to file joint tax returns?

Since I'm married, and not living wth in-laws or out-laws (one set you are related to through the law, one set you are related to regardless of the law... I'll let the gentle reader decide which are in-laws and which are out-laws). I'm not in a situation where I've got more adults than 2. Additionally, I'm in the situation where I make less than 50 gallons of beer or wine a year (less than 100 total of all types).

 

[jflongo]

Also, if any of you are married, you can double that amount

I believe I'm at 75 gallons right now between, beer, cider, and wine. So "legally" I can do another 125 gallons still since I'm married. But how will they ever know

 

[ingnuty]

Anyone else have a headache?

So technically you could get 100 friends to say they pitched yeast for 5gal each at their house then brought it to your house to ferment... but since each of them pitched at their respective houses theu could do this 20 times each throughout the calendar year and that would get you, what, 10000gal of beer? Haha. This Is all complicated. I'm just gonna RAHAHB.

 

[ACbrewer]

From the census people:
"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit. A house, an apartment or other group of rooms, or a single room, is regarded as a housing unit when it is occupied or intended for occupancy as separate living quarters; that is, when the occupants do not live with any other persons in the structure and there is direct access from the outside or through a common hall.

A household includes the related family members and all the unrelated people, if any, such as lodgers, foster children, wards, or employees who share the housing unit. A person living alone in a housing unit, or a group of unrelated people sharing a housing unit such as partners or roomers, is also counted as a household. The count of households excludes group quarters. There are two major categories of households, "family" and "nonfamily". (See definitions of Family household and Nonfamily household).
"

Which goes the the obvious - everyone living at one address is one 'household'. This is at varrience with explicit tax law with roomates filing different returns. Still why should we expect it to be any different. And one other location commented that the definition of 'household' varries state to state and in the Federal registar. Heck it probably varries in section to section of the Federal registar.

 

[ACbrewer]

Also, if any of you are married, you can double that amount

I believe I'm at 75 gallons right now between, beer, cider, and wine. So "legally" I can do another 125 gallons still since I'm married. But how will they ever know

on the Federal level, you can make 100/200 of Beer AND 100/200 of Wine, the totals are not 'combined 100' I've read over it several times.

States have differing takes on it, and some are 100/200 of all fermented beverages, and some are 100/200 of Beer(products with any malt) and 100/200 of wine(products with no malt, generally of grapes, but also includes honey-mead, and other non-grape fruits). So cider is wine for federal purposes. There are 3 types of federal alcohol. Those produced from malt products(beer), those produced from non malt products(wines), those produced from distillation (spirits).

Look over your state laws carefully.

 

[finsfan]

guys are you thinking this through too much! dont tell neighbors or the police that you brew more then the legal limit, dont brew a million gallons a year and sell it, dont brew 500 gallons at a time and you will all be fine! like others have said here, how will anyone know how much you have made this year unless you profess it? just dont keep a total of 200 gallons of fermenting or bottled beer on your property and you will be fine!

 

[woozy]

"Note the "dozen roommates" argument doesn't work here... or under the CFR, as MaxStout posted above."

But under some jurisdictions your roommates are considerate a separate household altogether.

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) defines a member of household as a person who is related to you or lives with you for the entire year as a member of your household" Which is odd, do roomates now need to file joint tax returns?

No, because they are taking "household" to be quasi-synonymous with "family" in this context. If you rent out a room in the attic to a college student and he lives there for the entire year but you never eat meals wiht him and you never take him on weekend trips to Grandma's, then he lives with you but doesn't live with you as a member of your household. Thus he's not a member of your household.

Hmm... "Definition of a x: a particular item that does certain specific things but whose purpose is as x." A bit circular...


From the census people:
"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit..."

But this is only for the purpose of and in the context of the census.

Which goes the the obvious - everyone living at one address is one 'household'.

Except for the cases of homebrewing it doesn't make sense. So what if I'm a lodger in a house with another family. When they brew their beer they aren't sharing it with me so why should the fact that the family already has two adults brewing beer limit how much beer I can brew? Nor when i brew I'm not sharing it with them so why should I limit their brew?

 

[MaxStout]

"Note the "dozen roommates" argument doesn't work here... or under the CFR, as MaxStout posted above."

But under some jurisdictions your roommates are considerate a separate household altogether.

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) defines a member of household as a person who is related to you or lives with you for the entire year as a member of your household" Which is odd, do roomates now need to file joint tax returns?

No, because they are taking "household" to be quasi-synonymous with "family" in this context. If you rent out a room in the attic to a college student and he lives there for the entire year but you never eat meals wiht him and you never take him on weekend trips to Grandma's he isn't considered a member of the household.

From the census people:
"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit..."

But this is only for the purpose of and in the context of the census.

Which goes the the obvious - everyone living at one address is one 'household'.

Except for the cases of homebrewing it doesn't make sense. So what if I'm a lodger in a house with another family. When they brew their beer they aren't sharing it with me so why should the fact that the family already has two adults brewing beer limit how much beer I can brew? Nor when i brew I'm not sharing it with them so why should I limit their brew?

OK, this is getting rather pedantic, but here we go anyway...

Trying to read in some other interpretation of the term "household," as it applies to the CFR, is disingenuous. Making an argument about how the IRS (or any other governmental body) views numerous individuals living under one roof, does not inpact the plain language of the CFR. The CFR makes it abundantly clear that the limit is reached once you have 2 or more adults residing in that household. Its interpretation has nothing to do with the IRS' definition of multiple income taxpayers residing in one place. That's 200 gallons in a calendar year, regardless of whether there are 2 or 20 or 200 adults residing there, and regardless of what relation any of them have to one another. And the law doesn't care of they are sharing it with one another.

Courts apply a "plain-language" interpretation to a statute; barring any ambiguities, the court will construe the law based on its language. There is nothing ambiguous in the CFR, nor does it incorporate by reference any definition by the IRS, or any other body.

The CFR is quite simple. I wish more laws were written this well.

 

[pfgonzo]

As as often as you see it work on TV, clever technicalities, or applications of grammar-tiwsts do not often result in a get-out-of-jail free card.

 

[ACbrewer]

OK, this is getting rather pedantic, but here we go anyway...

Trying to read in some other interpretation of the term "household," as it applies to the CFR, is disingenuous. Making an argument about how the IRS (or any other governmental body) views numerous individuals living under one roof, does not inpact the plain language of the CFR. The CFR makes it abundantly clear that the limit is reached once you have 2 or more adults residing in that household. Its interpretation has nothing to do with the IRS' definition of multiple income taxpayers residing in one place. That's 200 gallons in a calendar year, regardless of whether there are 2 or 20 or 200 adults residing there, and regardless of what relation any of them have to one another. And the law doesn't care of they are sharing it with one another.

Courts apply a "plain-language" interpretation to a statute; barring any ambiguities, the court will construe the law based on its language. There is nothing ambiguous in the CFR, nor does it incorporate by reference any definition by the IRS, or any other body.

The CFR is quite simple. I wish more laws were written this well.

I agree with your solution/end result, but disagree with your understanding about the CFR. the CFR which controls the IRS (who is another name for the TTB whose web page has the HB info) isn't clear. But the plain reading would be 'all who live at a legal address.' And it is best in some areas to error on caution than not.

 

[Frige]

Ok so Our Beloved President makes his own beer as well, maybe I do like the guy....naw but anyway. How much beer is he allowed to make? I bet more than 200 gallons. My point being dont sell it, dont advertise the fact that you made 203 gallons this year and no one will bother you. If you give it away to friends and even the local LEOs you will be just fine.

 

[woozy]

As as often as you see it work on TV, clever technicalities, or applications of grammar-tiwsts do not often result in a get-out-of-jail free card.

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that. i think we're just intrigued that we found a bit of law that is perplexing and we're trying to hash it out for the intellectual challenge of it. No-one here's brewing over the legal limit I guess and those who are probably don't care. And none of us have a bunch of roommate elves in to help us break the law.

But it is interesting.

Also there is a "common-sense" aspect but also common sense counter. Three roomates brew 300 gallons. Of course they are violating. A lodger goes to a brew club and brews 100 gallons and doesn't bother telling his landlords. Not so clear... On an intellectual basis it's interesting. On a *practical* level we have to have, by some unlikely coincidence, the landords deciding they want to brew and brewing 101 gallons, and then having the extremely unlikely event someone actually giving a damn and reporting it, and the government actually going through and then the thing being determined by whatever mood the judge happened to be in...

 

[pfgonzo]

Oh I know. All a thought experiment. Just throwing in a little practicality, though if we were being truly practical, I've never heard of this being applied to a home brewer who didn't sell their product. Never seen a forum post, or heard a rumour to that effect.

There're people in my own club that have home systems that blow past the 200g limit in three batches heh. I know they brew more than three times a year, but hey, it's beer! Who's going to narc?

 

[MaxStout]

I agree with your solution/end result, but disagree with your understanding about the CFR. the CFR which controls the IRS (who is another name for the TTB whose web page has the HB info) isn't clear. But the plain reading would be 'all who live at a legal address.' And it is best in some areas to error on caution than not.

I have no misunderstanding about the CFR. The CFR does not "control the IRS," it provides a narrow exception to what is normally taxed and regulated by the ATF. For purposes of that exception, the CFR states a clear definition of "household," a term around which much of this tedious thread has turned. You state that the CFR isn't clear. What part isn't clear to you? Seriously, I'm not trolling--I'm here to help if you're having trouble with this. The CFR means what it says. It couldn't possibly be any more concise or unambiguous. You (and a few others) are reading into something that just isn't there. "Erring on caution" means just stay within those defined parameters. It ain't rocket surgery.

Refer back the second paragraph of my previous post, as that explains how courts construe statutory law.

 

[mattd2]

...You state that the CFR isn't clear. What part isn't clear to you? Seriously, I'm not trolling--I'm here to help if you're having trouble with this. The CFR means what it says. It couldn't possibly be any more concise or unambiguous...

What is the definition used by CFR? Sorry if it has been said already, I just can't find it.

 

[MaxStout]

What is the definition used by CFR? Sorry if it has been said already, I just can't find it.

No problem. Here it is:

27 CFR 25.205 - Production.

§ 25.205
Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in § 25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.

Source

 

[mattd2]

No problem. Here it is:

27 CFR 25.205 - Production.

§ 25.205
Production.
(a) Any adult may produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use and not for sale. An adult is any individual who is 18 years of age or older. If the locality in which the household is located requires a greater minimum age for the sale of beer to individuals, the adult shall be that age before commencing the production of beer. This exemption does not authorize the production of beer for use contrary to State or local law.
(b) The production of beer per household, without payment of tax, for personal or family use may not exceed:
(1) 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more adults residing in the household, or
(2) 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.
(c) Partnerships except as provided in § 25.207, corporations or associations may not produce beer, without payment of tax, for personal or family use.

Source

Sorry, i meant what is the definition of household as used by CFR? From you same source (Cornell)

People living together in one dwelling, who may or may not be related.

sourec - http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/household

I have seen this extended to cover hostile situations being not termed a household even though it technically falls under the above

 

[MaxStout]

I think the key term is "adult(s) residing in..." (subd. (1), (2))

 

[mattd2]

I think the key term is "adult(s) residing in..." (subd. (1), (2))

I think we are both on the same page:
Family setting = household
Flatting = household
Dorms /= household

 

[woozy]

But then there is this

A family living together. Those who dwell under the same roof and compose a family.

Although I think the people living in the same dwelling is probably the most appropriate. Still in all it seems to be saying "the people in your household can make be up to 100 gallons if you live alone or 200 gallons if there's two or more of you".

Actually it's that bit 25.207 I find unclear. Just what's the definition of a brewery and what's an owner? and it *almost* seems as this this is a separate issue from the beer you made. But I guess if you are a part owner of a brewery that means you made the beer. You can't just take 100 gallons home that someone else made and then make another 100 gallons at home (or elsewhere) yourself.

So I guess... I'm just fishing about trying to figure this out... If Joe and Fred, two single guys who live alone, like to meet up at Fred's house and make beer. Fred makes 150 gallons one year and Joe makes 50, but they split 'em even and Joe takes 100 home. Is everything hunky-dory? Legally speaking that is. Is Fred taxable for the extra 50 gallons? Joe reached his limit on what he can take from his brewery but he hasn't reached what he can brew. Can he brew another 50 gallons?

And what about gifts? Are we allowed to give beer away? Can Fred brew 300 gallons and give 100 to Steve and 100 to Stan. Are we allowed to recieve beer as gifts? Can Steve and Stan brew any beer after receiving 100 gallons for Fred?

 

[mattd2]

But then there is this

A family living together. Those who dwell under the same roof and compose a family.

Although I think the people living in the same dwelling is probably the most appropriate. Still in all it seems to be saying "the people in your household can make be up to 100 gallons if you live alone or 200 gallons if there's two or more of you".

Actually it's that bit 25.207 I find unclear. Just what's the definition of a brewery and what's an owner? and it *almost* seems as this this is a separate issue from the beer you made. But I guess if you are a part owner of a brewery that means you made the beer. You can't just take 100 gallons home that someone else made and then make another 100 gallons at home (or elsewhere) yourself.

So I guess... I'm just fishing about trying to figure this out... If Joe and Fred, two single guys who live alone, like to meet up at Fred's house and make beer. Fred makes 150 gallons one year and Joe makes 50, but they split 'em even and Joe takes 100 home. Is everything hunky-dory? Legally speaking that is. Is Fred taxable for the extra 50 gallons? Joe reached his limit on what he can take from his brewery but he hasn't reached what he can brew. Can he brew another 50 gallons?

And what about gifts? Are we allowed to give beer away? Can Fred brew 300 gallons and give 100 to Steve and 100 to Stan. Are we allowed to recieve beer as gifts? Can Steve and Stan brew any beer after receiving 100 gallons for Fred?

Most sources state that a family also need not be related.
You are confusing things with looking at 25.207 - that is about taking beer from a commercial brewery without paying tax. Basically it is the equivilant of a brewer saying he used the brewery to homebrew.

Remember that these regulations are not about homebrewing but about excemption from tax and licencing on beer produced by/for a household.

25.205 is the big one you are looking at as a homebrewer, and it doesn't say where th beer is made just that it is made for a household.

No Fred can not brew 300 gallons a year and gift 200 away and legally say it is ok, but if steve and stan brewed the beer with Fred for their respective households that would be ok.

 

[ACbrewer]

I have no misunderstanding about the CFR. The CFR does not "control the IRS," it provides a narrow exception to what is normally taxed and regulated by the ATF. For purposes of that exception, the CFR states a clear definition of "household," a term around which much of this tedious thread has turned. You state that the CFR isn't clear. What part isn't clear to you? Seriously, I'm not trolling--I'm here to help if you're having trouble with this. The CFR means what it says. It couldn't possibly be any more concise or unambiguous. You (and a few others) are reading into something that just isn't there. "Erring on caution" means just stay within those defined parameters. It ain't rocket surgery.

Refer back the second paragraph of my previous post, as that explains how courts construe statutory law.

Sir your statement that the CFR does not 'control the IRS' makes no sense on the face of it. If the Combine Federal Registar - ie the Federal law doens't control the IRS ie give it form and function, what does?? ***Although I suppose sinced the CFR only covers about 60% of the laws it is plausable that IRS's controling legislation isn't part of the CFR***

Where my actual issue is that if you have 2 unrelated people renting an appartment (think of the people in the TV show Friends), when they file taxes, they'd never think of filing ajoint return, or as one as a dependant of the other.
Yet as Isearch for what a household is defined as, there is ample evidence that they should do just that. This includs IRS definitions (mentioned in a previous post). - and here is where my confusion with it is. Also remmeber TTB =IRS both are part of Treasury, one has more guns than auditors, the other has more auditors than guns, and neither is like when they show up anounced or not.


Section 25.207 does refer to a liscensed brewer. Infact under federal law, homebrewers aren't brewers nor do we have breweries as legally defined- from 25.11
"Brewer. Any person who brews beer (except a person who produces only beer exempt from tax under 26 U.S.C. 5053(e)) and any person who produces beer for sale.

Brewery. The land and buildings described in the Brewer's Notice, Form 5130.10, where beer is to be produced and packaged"
26 USC 5053(e) is basically a rehash of 25.205 from the CFR, so reading the definition of brewer - any person who brews beer except for a person who produces [only for personal use]
And I'm sure none of us has filed a Brewer's Notice on form 5130.10


But as to the OP's question, the hashout here seems to be that the brew limit is not imposed on the location of brew, but on each brewers domicle. So if 3 or more unrelated pepole share a house (single address point), they can make a total of 200 gallons regardless of where they make them. Conversly if 3 or more people who do not share a domicile but all gather at one place to brew to share equipment they could each brew up to their household limit (100/200)
Additionally it is probably better if they actually ferment at their residence, as doing it all at "Fred's" could get him in trouble. And in most cases he who puts in the yeast is the brewer, and is responsible for all elements of the process after that (ie any racking, additions and packaging).

One last thing for the OP, as you share equipment, besure to define who owns it, and how people will split it should the group disolve due to any reason (someone moves, fights, bankruptcy, etc).

 

[ntbritton]

Thank you ACbrewer your recomendation to the equipment. We have took some steps there. Treating it as a business transaction.

The problem i could see some people having in these situations is everyone in the group may not have the equipment to bottle or keg the beer in their respective homes. So the beer may sit in a carboy or fermentation bucket until it is kegged or bottled and then removed. I wonder how the law treats this scenario.

Because to your point each brewer can brew up to their limits if the have different households, and it should not matter where it is stored because through the process because that does not change who the brewer of that batch is.

If Fred was to keep an accurate brew log this could prove to be valuable in such a legal predicament i believe.

 

[ntbritton]

What is an "OP"?

 

[woozy]

OP-- original poster. The person who started this discussion and who had original concerns from which the general discussion may have (and in this case, most certainly has) deviated.

 

[GrogNerd]

What is an "OP"?

Original Post or Original Poster

Thread Starter

in this case, you

 

[woozy]

Well, my take of the law is that everyone can brew 100 gallons of beer. Makes no difference where; in one's home, in a field, on an airplane. And that makes sense.

And you can't abuse this law by making it a "family business"; no "I made 100 and my wife made 100 and our daughter made 100 and those 100 gallons leaving in a truck from the driveway were our son-in-laws and this batch in that 100 gallon fermentor was made by my sister-in-law and...". And that makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is that if you can brew in a plane, on a train, in a house, with a mouse, and each person can brew a 100 gallons then what's all this business about "households"? What does where you live have to do with the price of yeast?

And the answer to that is, of course, nothing; the law has nothing to do with where anybody lives. It's just that where people live has always been how we've kept tabs on folks and what familial units the have.

But I'm a post-modern urban guy and I'm used to homelessness, roommates, multiple families sharing units, those who don't enter the traditional concept of family, etc. I hear "households" and I want to know the dealio...

Okay, so the law's impartial. Limit applies to people sharing an address, end of story, what *else* could it mean and still be fair and impartial? Well, okay.... but I've got to feel a little sorry for poor Jim a few pages back. He moved into a house, discovered his roommates were all brewing beer at other places and going to the household limit, so he can't brew anything even though he never brewed any beer, no beer was being brewed at his house, and his roommates weren't sharing any of the beer with him.

 

[ACbrewer]

But I'm a post-modern urban guy and I'm used to homelessness, roommates, multiple families sharing units, those who don't enter the traditional concept of family, etc. I hear "households" and I want to know the dealio...

Okay, so the law's impartial. Limit applies to people sharing an address, end of story, what *else* could it mean and still be fair and impartial? Well, okay.... but I've got to feel a little sorry for poor Jim a few pages back. He moved into a house, discovered his roommates were all brewing beer at other places and going to the household limit, so he can't brew anything even though he never brewed any beer, no beer was being brewed at his house, and his roommates weren't sharing any of the beer with him.

Yeah I agree with you here especially since poor little Jim from several pages ago isn't sharing his tax returns with everyone in the address. But all the readings seem to be houshold=domicile address. Looks like if poor Jim is in some states, he will have to make mead or wine - but with no malt.

VA for instance goes with the feds and you can do 100/200 beer and 100/200 wine. MO however has a 100/200 alcoholic beverage (beer and wine are lumped together)

OP (ntbritton)- another note - All of my stuff, and most of what we have been talking about has been the specific Federal limits. The states may have more restrictive.

 

[ACbrewer]

Original Post or Original Poster

Thread Starter

in this case, you

I was thinking of posting this very comment.

 

[ntbritton]

I have been referring to the Federal Law as well. I think understanding this would be the most beneficial to everyone. Even if your not going to come close or worry about the law, its always good to understand it and to be well versed in such subject matters.

Thanks guys for clearing up the "OP" for me. I suspected that but did not want to assume, being some what new to the trade.

 

[mikescooling]

You know, no one has ever been busted for making over the allotted amount.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I wouldn't worry about it at all to be honest. I can't imagine anyone actually being prosecuted under this statute.

This.

I don't have a federal regulator walking around every time I brew. Also I don't think brewing up more than 100 Gallons is very easy for most folk, unless you're brewing every week or very large batches.

 

[woozy]

Right. Let's say that the OP, ntbritton, and his 2 buds brew 5 gallons every other week. That's 130 gallons a year which is pretty heavy duty. And although no-one's going to complain or call the cops, it's reasonable for the OP's peace of mind to want to know whether he is or is not willfully scoffing the law. Well, he can rest easy as he is not.

 

[mattd2]

...What doesn't make sense is that if you can brew in a plane, on a train, in a house, with a mouse, and each person can brew a 100 gallons then what's all this business about "households"? What does where you live have to do with the price of yeast?...

Because the term household is not meaning house, it is meaning "family". It is brewing beer for your family/household, i.e. for personal consumption. It is limiting the amount you can brew for personal consuption within some confined boundry. I guess because when they first brought this out at a federal level you had people saying that everyone would just be getting drunk on homebrew all day. So they said well then adults can only brew 100 gallons a year... and so on... just try follow what has happened in Alabama and the crazy admendments they tried to put on there state bill... same thing would have happened at a federal level too