Hey Spunders, did your beer quality go up after you discoverd spunding?

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artichoke said:
I've found that spunded lagers take a long time to clear (usually several months), but the reward is that they exhibit a wonderful, fine, and moussey carbonation and foam stand I can't seem to replicate with forced CO2. So I would say the quality of carbonation, mouthfeel and foam stand are the main benefits of spunding, but the trade-off is the time it takes to serve clear beer. This is just my experience using WLP833, Imperial Harvest and 34/70, it's possible other strains clear faster and are better suited to spunding.

Regarding freshness and longevity, I always add SMB to the keg to suck up oxygen when I force carbonate, so I haven't noticed a difference in freshness between my force carbonated and spunded lagers over long periods of time (up to 1 year after kegging).

- AC
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What is SMB?
 
FWIW I appreciate all of the comments and opinions that have been expressed in this thread. Different opinions are great imo. It's how we figure things out and learn. I take what I can use now and file the rest for later when I'm smarter, lol.

Seriously, thanks for the input.
 
Bilsch said:
The fact is the oxygen in solution is constantly reacting with the antioxidants in the beer.. namely your fresh malt flavors and hop aromas. This process is known as staling. As the oxygen in solution is quickly being depleted by said antioxidants, the remaining O2 in the headspace is quietly going into solution until all the oxygen in the keg is gone. Along with your freshness!
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Well said. Oxygen is a problem because of how reactive it is. It doesn't stick around long in pure form because of its propensity to react with so many other substances.
 
I can't quite wrap my head around how the CO2 created by yeast differs from the CO2 in the bottle (except for purity, of course). I get what people are saying about oxygen ingress, but I don't understand how spunding would have an impact on the "quality" of carbonation and the mouthfeel... ?

To a simple minded man like me it seems that a molecule of CO2 has no idea where it's coming from and will behave the same regardless.
 
monkeymath said:
I can't quite wrap my head around how the CO2 created by yeast differs from the CO2 in the bottle (except for purity, of course). I get what people are saying about oxygen ingress, but I don't understand how spunding would have an impact on the "quality" of carbonation and the mouthfeel... ?

To a simple minded man like me it seems that a molecule of CO2 has no idea where it's coming from and will behave the same regardless.
Click to expand...

I'm not at all saying that I think I could taste a difference in the same beer spunded vs. force carbonated, but I recall reading somewhere that stress on the yeast due to the higher pressure may cause them to release something (glycerol maybe?) that could have an impact on the mouthfeel and "softness" of the carbonation.

Personally, I prefer spunding whenever it's convenient as a means to limit O2 and save on CO2 refills. I still force carbonate for dry hopped beers, since I haven't found a spunding method that gives me good/consistent results when dealing with dry hops.
 
cheesebach said:
I'm not at all saying that I think I could taste a difference in the same beer spunded vs. force carbonated, but I recall reading somewhere that stress on the yeast due to the higher pressure may cause them to release something (glycerol maybe?) that could have an impact on the mouthfeel and "softness" of the carbonation.

Personally, I prefer spunding whenever it's convenient as a means to limit O2 and save on CO2 refills. I still force carbonate for dry hopped beers, since I haven't found a spunding method that gives me good/consistent results when dealing with dry hops.
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You hear a lot of nonsense trying to justify a non-existent difference between natural and forced carbonation. If you do it right and don't turn spunding into an actual pressure fermentation (i.e. spund with 0.5% fermentable extract left and not 5.0%) the impact on yeast-derived flavors will be zero.
As for combining spunding and dry-hopping may I point you to this thread?
 
cheesebach said:
Personally, I prefer spunding whenever it's convenient as a means to limit O2 and save on CO2 refills. I still force carbonate for dry hopped beers, since I haven't found a spunding method that gives me good/consistent results when dealing with dry hops.
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I've only done a single batch where I used a spunding valve, so have still got a lot to learn and many questions. Am I able to dry hop and use gelatin for fining in beer that is being spunded?

Thanks in advance
 
That depends on what type of vessel you're doing the spunding in.
With the more advanced fermenters it is possible and you'll find a discussion of the possible solutions in the thread I mentioned in the post above yours. If you're spunding in a keg this gets trickier as it's not a good idea to open up the keg once the beer is fully carbonated. Besides the obvious oxygen ingress you run the risk of an involuntary beer shower.
 
Surfboy66 said:
I've only done a single batch where I used a spunding valve, so have still got a lot to learn and many questions. Am I able to dry hop and use gelatin for fining in beer that is being spunded?

Thanks in advance
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Best way to do it if you’re fermenting & spunding in a keg (like myself) would be adding it using a syringe through the PRV of the purged serving/secondary keg while flowing in CO2 at a low psi through either the gas in or liquid out post. I’d guess the amount of O2 getting in through the PRV while you have it open with CO2 attached and flowing is probably small compared to the amount of O2 that’s already in your gelatin or other fining solution that you’re adding. I use a 100ml syringe I bought off amazon when I’ve done this, although planning on trying biofine clear on my next batch which I may use a smaller syringe for.
 
cheesebach said:
Best way to do it if you’re fermenting & spunding in a keg (like myself) would be adding it using a syringe through the PRV of the purged serving/secondary keg while flowing in CO2 at a low psi through either the gas in or liquid out post. I’d guess the amount of O2 getting in through the PRV while you have it open with CO2 attached and flowing is probably small compared to the amount of O2 that’s already in your gelatin or other fining solution that you’re adding. I use a 100ml syringe I bought off amazon when I’ve done this, although planning on trying biofine clear on my next batch which I may use a smaller syringe for.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply Cheesebach

Just to clarify - you syringe your gelatin into an empty, purged secondary/serving keg and then transfer the carbonated beer on top of it from the primary fermenter/keg. I assume the first few pints you then pour from the serving keg will have gelatin in?

Thanks again
 
Surfboy66 said:
Thanks for your reply Cheesebach

Just to clarify - you syringe your gelatin into an empty, purged secondary/serving keg and then transfer the carbonated beer on top of it from the primary fermenter/keg. I assume the first few pints you then pour from the serving keg will have gelatin in?

Thanks again
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You got it. It’s generally a pint or less of gunk until I’m getting clear beer. It could be more if you don’t cold crash in the primary or accidentally stir things up a bit during the transfer. Don’t forget to flow in CO2 when you open the PRV to add the fining solution, or you’ll get more O2 ingress.
 
cheesebach said:
You got it. It’s generally a pint or less of gunk until I’m getting clear beer. It could be more if you don’t cold crash in the primary or accidentally stir things up a bit during the transfer. Don’t forget to flow in CO2 when you open the PRV to add the fining solution, or you’ll get more O2 ingress.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll give it a go.
Cheers!
 
I have been doing all of my beers under pressure in a corny (or larger) and have loved the results. For dry hopping I add the hops in a stainless steel mesh container to another sanitized keg, purge the hell out of it, then do a closed transfer in to it. I will serve out of that keg for 2 weeks before transferring it again to another purged keg. VERY fresh beer :)
 
Virginia_Ranger said:
I have been doing all of my beers under pressure in a corny (or larger) and have loved the results. For dry hopping I add the hops in a stainless steel mesh container to another sanitized keg, purge the hell out of it, then do a closed transfer in to it. I will serve out of that keg for 2 weeks before transferring it again to another purged keg. VERY fresh beer :)
Click to expand...

Sounds like you've got your system pretty well sorted. Do you mind sharing how your fermenting schedule works. When into fermentation you pressurize, what pressure, for how long, etc?

Thanks in advance
Cheers
 
Virginia_Ranger said:
I have been doing all of my beers under pressure in a corny (or larger) and have loved the results. For dry hopping I add the hops in a stainless steel mesh container to another sanitized keg, purge the hell out of it, then do a closed transfer in to it. I will serve out of that keg for 2 weeks before transferring it again to another purged keg. VERY fresh beer :)
Click to expand...


what's the reason for the extra transfer after 2 weeks? I have a Janet's Brown Ale with several ounces of dry hops sitting in the keg for 2 months now - still tastes great!
 
twd000 said:
what's the reason for the extra transfer after 2 weeks? I have a Janet's Brown Ale with several ounces of dry hops sitting in the keg for 2 months now - still tastes great!
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Do you use a floating dip tube when you do this? I've only tried keeping dry hops in the serving keg once. This was with a shortened dip tube with a screen surrounding it. The 1st pour of the day had an astringency to it throughout the life of the keg, which I have to assume was from the beer at the bottom being in contact with the hops. If I ever try it again, it would only be with a floating dip tube with the hop that the astringent beer would stay at the bottom and only affect the last few pours.
 
Surfboy66 said:
Sounds like you've got your system pretty well sorted. Do you mind sharing how your fermenting schedule works. When into fermentation you pressurize, what pressure, for how long, etc?

Thanks in advance
Cheers
Click to expand...

Sure! I usually oxygenate, seal it up, and add the spuding valve right after pitching and let that get up to 10-14 psi naturally at temps of 63-69 F and purge it down to 5 psi through out the first day then let it crawl back up and repeat. By day 2 or so I dial the valve in around 10 psi. I do not recommend going over 15 psi early in fermentation at the 60-70 F range. I noticed I consistently had stalled or stuck fermentations when going over 15 psi at my temps.

I don't shoot for 100% carbonation from fermentation so I usually will leave it at 10 psi while fermenting, into the the cold crash, and then eventually into the serving keg (to finish by force carbing via carbonation stone).

* For my NEIPAs I will typically purge the keg fully via the PRV after 24-36 hours, hook it up to CO2 and purge it 2-3 times, then dial it in at 10 psi until I do a closed transfer onto the dry hops (in stainless steel mesh) in a purged keg around day 4-5. I let it sit at fermentation temps for 36 hours, then move it into the fridge for cold crash for 24-48 hours. It then goes into a 3rd closed transfer for serving keg / final carbing (most times containing fresh hops, for up to 2 weeks).

* Last foot note: one thing I found that made a noticeable difference is when you do the closed transfer, CO2 purge your transfer line first.
 
twd000 said:
what's the reason for the extra transfer after 2 weeks? I have a Janet's Brown Ale with several ounces of dry hops sitting in the keg for 2 months now - still tastes great!
Click to expand...

It seems to vary by hop but 2 weeks just seems to be the sweet spot on my NEIPAs and after that I have gotten some grassy notes (this is with Citra, Mosaic, Cashmere). Cascade is the worst offender for me, it may have been a bad lot of them but man they just had this herbal tea flavor after they were in the keg to long.
 
cheesebach said:
Do you use a floating dip tube when you do this? I've only tried keeping dry hops in the serving keg once. This was with a shortened dip tube with a screen surrounding it. The 1st pour of the day had an astringency to it throughout the life of the keg, which I have to assume was from the beer at the bottom being in contact with the hops. If I ever try it again, it would only be with a floating dip tube with the hop that the astringent beer would stay at the bottom and only affect the last few pours.
Click to expand...

Yes I have homemade floating dip tubes in every keg. They use a wine filter screen to prevent hops from getting sucked in
 
Virginia_Ranger said:
I do not recommend going over 15 psi early in fermentation at the 60-70 F range. I noticed I consistently had stalled or stuck fermentations when going over 15 psi at my temps.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing Virginia_Ranger, much appreciated.

In the only batch I've used a spunding valve, I pitched at around 65F using a blow-off tube for 2 days. I then attached the spunding valve set at 15psi and let it rise naturally to this level. I kept it at this pressure throughout fermentation and was very happy with how the beer turned out. I had read that there was very little ester suppression in the first couple of days, this together with not wanting to get a stuck fermentation, was the reasoning for not spunding from the beginning of fermentation. I tried dry hopping in the primary fermenter, which I now realize was a mistake, but in future will do a closed transfer to a second, purged keg containing the dry hops.

Thanks again
 
I think I prefer spunded. I certainly love the concept. Haven't done a side by side but thinking maybe I should to confirm at least the personal taste preference
 
I'm new to pressure fermentations but now have everything I would need to do one. I've searched around a bit but don't seem to see a hard list of guidelines for what to do or not do, and what to expect. In general, I've read the following:

1) You can increase temp and ferment faster.
- Q: how much can you increase temp? If pressure also slows the fermentation, why doesn't this just cancel out any speed gains?

2) Ester production is suppressed by pressure.
-Q: I guess this is good if you are going for a very clean yeast, but not so good if you actually want the esters? So something like APA would be a good candidate for pressure fermentation, but not, say Hefe were yeast flavor is a major component?

Is there a list of temp and pressure profile during primary fermentation recommended for different styles or different yeasts out there?
 
DVCNick said:
I'm new to pressure fermentations but now have everything I would need to do one. I've searched around a bit but don't seem to see a hard list of guidelines for what to do or not do, and what to expect. In general, I've read the following:

1) You can increase temp and ferment faster.
- Q: how much can you increase temp? If pressure also slows the fermentation, why doesn't this just cancel out any speed gains?

2) Ester production is suppressed by pressure.
-Q: I guess this is good if you are going for a very clean yeast, but not so good if you actually want the esters? So something like APA would be a good candidate for pressure fermentation, but not, say Hefe were yeast flavor is a major component?

Is there a list of temp and pressure profile during primary fermentation recommended for different styles or different yeasts out there?
Click to expand...

I've also not found real guidelines wrt fermenting under pressure. Some useful information on Scott Janish's blogg - he gets into the weeds with some good research references.

http://scottjanish.com/fermenting-dry-hopping-pressure/

Cheers
 
Pressure fermentation is commercially used on lagers. They can then be fermented with a peak at ale temperatures, 60°-70°F, and can finish in the same time as ales, that is, reaching FG in 48-72 hours. It is temperature, not ale vs lager yeast or pressure, that determines the speed of fermentation. Pressure does suppress ester formation in later stages of fermentation, but suppresses yeast growth early on. I am unaware of any slowing of fermentation due to pressures normally used, that is around 15 psig, and I have a fair bit of experience. I have, just once or twice out of curiosity, tried pressure fermentation on an ale. Just like any ale, it reached FG in just over 48 hours. It was, however, (unsurprisingly) entirely lacking in any ale like character, or much character at all, quite disappointing. I see no useful application of pressure fermentation for ales. My experience.
 
Well if nothing else, it would allow for easy cold crashing and closed system transfer, both with basically zero oxygen exposure. I could just set my spunding valve at or near wide open so it wouldn't really be under much pressure, if that is the more desireable state.

I've targeted a basic wheat beer for my first use of this system this weekend; actually, mostly because there is no dry hopping so my floating dip tube shouldn't get clogged. I'm pretty sure the yeast is supposed to contribute to the flavor a good bit.
 
Yes, you can crash and transfer under pressure without oxygen exposure, that is a great advantage. You can also spund to carbonate, either in the fermenter or the keg after transfer, even on ales, without compromising the character. You just want to build the correct pressure to carbonate at the very end, with only a couple of points left to ferment out, having done the bulk of fermentation at atmospheric pressure. By then the flavor will be fully developed and the pressure won't adversely affect it.
 
Lately on my lagers I've been combining it with a diacetyl rest (which I may or may not need.) So transferring to keg at fermentation temperature (10°C/50°F) and letting it rise to 18°C/64°F with the spunding valve set to pressure for that warmer temperature. The warming up does at least speed up the process and clear out the fermentation chamber faster, even if the d-rest isn't strictly necessary. Then when I cool it to lagering temperature I reduce pressure accordingly.
 
Shwagger said:
Are a lot of people force carbing? I always natural carb with a sugar of some sort. Id dint realize force carbing was so prevalent. Seemed silly to me when waiting a couple of weeks and you have carbonation
Click to expand...

You can back that timeline even further if you spund. Before it’s done fermenting transfer it to a keg with a spund valve. The time you would have waited for it to finish fermenting then add prime and wait two weeks for carbonation can be combined. The unfinished wort is the prime. No more cost for the prime plus the added benefit of yeast scavenging the O2 and freeing up the fermenter faster.
 

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