Help with Vanilla Sweet Stout

[cdubbaya]

Having a question about a chocolate/vanilla sweet stout. We're hoping for a milk chocolate flavor with a nice vanilla finish. I'm hoping the Special B and CaraPils add enough body, but still allow the sugar to sweeten.

The question is, is that still too much sugar? First time using cocoa powder and lactose, so any advice is appreciated.


Recipe: Vanilla Sweet Stout
OG: 1.068
FG: 1.022
SRM: 41
IBU: 32.2
Yeast: WLP002 (starter)

Boil: 6 gallons (60 minutes)

53% 5lbs Briess DME Golden Light
11% 1lbs Chocolate Malt (US)
11% 1lbs Special B Malt
11% 1lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine
5% 8oz Cocoa powder
5% 8oz Briess Caramel 120L
5% 8oz Milk Sugar (Lactose)

1oz Willamette 60 mins
1oz Fuggles 30 mins

4 Vanilla Beans in Secondary (7-10 days)

 

[aseg]

Lactose offers a TON of body/mouthfeel in addition to subtle sweetness. I say "subtle" because most people don't pick up on it. I usually use 1# for 5 gallons of beer, but half a pound should work just fine for you with this recipe.

As far as the rest of your recipe:
- I personally try to not use more than .5# of special B in anything. I would sub in .5# CR 60 or 75 for that sweetness that you are looking for - possibly replacing the 120.
- I would add .5# flaked oats/barley for some creamy mouthfeel and additional body
- 4 beans may be too much. I usually use two, but I also make a tincture, so I don't end up pulling the beans out.
- you don't mention what you are doing with the cocoa, so I'll assume that you'll put it in the secondary.
- Finally, it doesn't look like you have enough fermentables for a 6 gallon batch to be 1.068. I think you'll need more like 8# Malt Extract.

Overall, you are on target, and making a very complex beer. If you are hoping to learn from it, then you should minimize the batch, make a milk stout, then a chocolate stout, then an oatmeal stout, figuring out how each adjunct plays a role. fwiw - Body is one thing you shouldn't have to worry about, unless you have a concern of having too much.

Cheers! and good luck!

 

[cdubbaya]

Thanks for the response, interesting notes.

As for the flaked oats/barley, I'm not mashing any of the grains, so that may be out of the question. I've heard that flaked oats need to be mashed to impart anything to the beer. The specialty grains in the recipe will be steeped. That said, I plan on taking gravity readings throughout the boil, so I'll make sure I have extra DME on hand in case I need to boost to hit my OG.

Is there a reason you don't use more than a .5# of special B? I've read that it can give good caramel or chocolate tones, is there something else I should consider when using special B?

The cocoa and lactose are going at the end of the boil. I've also read that cocoa powder needs to be boiled, or it turns into a chalky sludge. I'm trying to dissolve both sugars in the wort so they can be distributed evenly. I know there are some differing opinions here, so I'd love to hear both sides from anyone who's tried it!

 

[aseg]

You have to mash them to get out fermentable sugars . . .which you don't care about. If you are going to be steeping for 30 or more minutes, then I would put them in. This will seriously be the secret weapon.

Special B gets "raisiny" (in my experience) when using more than .5#, which is great in Belgians, but I figure that you're going for a more caramel/toffee-like sweetness.

I'm not touching the cocoa one . . . Like you said, plenty of opinions out there. For lactose, I always add it in the last 10-15 minutes of the boil with good results. It dissolves easily.

 

[cdubbaya]

Haha, ok, you talked me into at least looking into using flaked oats.

Thanks for the advice on the Special B, I'll decrease to .5# and maybe add some C60 to make up for it.

We're brewing this on 1/28, so I'd love to hear any additional feedback.

 

[Stauffbier]

The cocoa and lactose are going at the end of the boil. I've also read that cocoa powder needs to be boiled, or it turns into a chalky sludge. QUOTE]

With cocoa powder I get the chalky sludge whether I boil it or not.. Not a big deal, just don't let it siphon into your bottling bucket (or keg) and you should be fine...

 

[aseg]

We're brewing this on 1/28, so I'd love to hear any additional feedback.

Sounds like you have a winner, be sure to share your results!

 

[bassballboy]

If you want a noticeable vanilla flavor, stick with 4 beans. I made a milk stout with 2 beans and a month after bottling the vanilla is barely noticeable

 

[bowiefan]

+1 on the flaked oats.
The lactose is fine at 8 oz
2 vanilla beans cut and scraped in secondary for 2 weeks will give you a balanced vanilla flavor.
The unsweetened cocoa powder worrks fine added to secondary
8 oz of unsweetened cocoa is a lot. And will give you a very rich dessertish beer

 

[mmoran903]

I'm definitely interested in how this turns out. Please let us know.

 

[cdubbaya]

If you want a noticeable vanilla flavor, stick with 4 beans. I made a milk stout with 2 beans and a month after bottling the vanilla is barely noticeable

My wife makes her own vanilla extract by placing vanilla beans in Vodka. Luckily she's had a few Madagascar vanilla beans soaking for almost a year, so we'll be using those. The plan is to dump a couple jars (maybe 3-4 cups?) plus the cut beans into secondary and rack on top. By now, that should be almost 100% extract, but we'll taste to see.

 

[aseg]

The plan is to dump a couple jars (maybe 3-4 cups?) plus the cut beans into secondary and rack on top. By now, that should be almost 100% extract, but we'll taste to see.

That is a TON of vanilla. Possibly even a vanilla bomb. I soak innerds of 2 beans in 1/4 C vodka or spiced rum (yum!) for 2-3 weeks and that is a nice amount to add into my beer. It takes a few weeks for the vanilla to blend in with the beer, but after that it is nice.

 

[cdubbaya]

That is a TON of vanilla. Possibly even a vanilla bomb. I soak innerds of 2 beans in 1/4 C vodka or spiced rum (yum!) for 2-3 weeks and that is a nice amount to add into my beer. It takes a few weeks for the vanilla to blend in with the beer, but after that it is nice.

We have 18 days before brew day, but if the standard for vanilla is only around 1/4 cup, maybe we'll dial it back a bit. We definitely don't want an overpowering vanilla flavor, just something subtle with the chocolate. Maybe 1/4 jar of my wife's homemade extract will do the trick? They are about 2 cups each. That makes 1/2 cup of pure extract in the beer.

Do you gently stir it into the secondary? I believe we'll be bottling this batch, so maybe stir it in at bottling and let it sit for a month or so?

 

[Stauffbier]

My wife makes her own vanilla extract by placing vanilla beans in Vodka. Luckily she's had a few Madagascar vanilla beans soaking for almost a year, so we'll be using those. The plan is to dump a couple jars (maybe 3-4 cups?) plus the cut beans into secondary and rack on top. By now, that should be almost 100% extract, but we'll taste to see.

3-4 cups of vodka based extract is way too much vodka to put in beer IMO.. I use a powdered vanilla extract made for brewing..

 

[aseg]

Do you gently stir it into the secondary? I believe we'll be bottling this batch, so maybe stir it in at bottling and let it sit for a month or so?

just pour the extract into the carboy before you rack the beer on it. You want to stir as little as possible (oxidation and all).

If you are really wanting subtlety, I would stick to 1/4 C. Taste (and smell) some after a week and decide if you want to add more. You have a kind of unique opportunity to perfectly dial it in because you have plenty on hand. Remember - you can always add, but cannot take away.

Total time in secondary is up to you, and depends on so many variables. It sounds like this is an important beer for you, so maybe a leave it a bit longer. It certainly won't hurt it to leave it in the secondary to develop.

 

[cdubbaya]

Just brewed this today. It smells great, and after a couple small blips in the brew day, it should turn out to be a pretty good chocolate milk stout!

Here's the recipe we brewed:

OG: 1.068
FG: 1.023
SRM: 38
IBU: 32.1
Yeast: WLP002 (starter)

53% 5lbs Briess DME Golden Light
10% 1lbs Chocolate Malt (US)
10% 1lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine
5% 8oz Special B Malt
5% 8oz Briess Caramel 60L
5% 8oz Briess Caramel 120L
5% 8oz Milk Sugar (Lactose)
4% 6oz Cocoa powder

1oz Willamette 60 mins
1oz Fuggles 30 mins

4 Vanilla Beans in Secondary (7-10 days)

Steeped the grains at 160F for 30 minutes, then brought to a boil.
Added 1oz Willamette at 60 minutes, added 1oz Fuggles and Malt Extract at 30 minutes.
Added 6oz Cocoa Powder and 8oz Lactose with 10 minutes left in the boil.
Cooled to around 60 degrees, pitched yeast.

Will follow up when we add the vanilla after fermentation!

 

[BeerForTim]

subscribed. can't wait to hear how this turns out.

 

[cdubbaya]

Transferred this to secondary tonight. Lost about .5 gallon to the trub, a bit more than expected.

I put about 2 cups of homemade vanilla extract in the carboy and racked on top of it. I plan to leave this for about 5 days, then keg it. I'll condition in the keg for a few weeks to let all the flavors mix. I added more vanilla than usual, but hopefully this settles out over time.

Hope it turns out great, because man, a primary full of chocolate sludge is hard to clean!

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

how did this one turn out? looks like there were high hopes from you...thats also ALOT of extract...

 

[cdubbaya]

Actually, not very good. It was drinkable, but really thin and a bit too chalky due to the cocoa powder.

It was more of an experiment with the ingredients, but I wouldn't make it again. Maybe those stouts aren't my favorite style, or maybe it was just a bad recipe, but I didn't enjoy it enough to keep, so I dumped the last gallon or so.

Always next time!