help with this Wheat Wine recipe

[syd138]

So I am looking to do a Wheat Wine, kind of along the lines of Terrapin- Gamma Ray minus the honey.

I guess the biggest questions I have are:
- Should I add any sugar, maybe 1/2 a lb?
- Should I increase the IBUs?
- What type of yeast should I use? I was thinking of just using 3 packs of Nottingham. I don't want to deal with creating a starter.

Thoughts?

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
8.00 lb Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 49.69 %
6.60 lb Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 40.99 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 6.21 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.11 %
1.50 oz Nugget [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 41.0 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 4.2 IBU


Est Original Gravity: 1.108 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.65 %
Bitterness: 45.2 IBU
Est Color: 14.9 SRM

 

[BeerLogic]

That is going to finish really sweet unless you dry it out in the secondary with a high attenuating yeast, like a champagne yeast. I would cut back on the malt extract and add sugar. For this style, plain old corn sugar should work fine. I would say cut out the liquid extract entirely, up the dry extract to 10 pounds, and add two pounds of corn sugar. That will get you to the same original gravity but it will dry out to a much more drinkable level of sweetness.

Unless you seriously object, going with honey might actually be better; I made a similar beer with 9 pounds of liquid wheat extract and 3 pounds of honey that came out great.

For the hops, that really depends on your taste. 45 IBUs is right in the middle of evenly balanced for your original gravity. If you want it a little hoppy, you could go as high as 55 IBUs before it starts to become IPA-like.

For that high of an original gravity you really should make a starter. An easy way to do this is to take about a cup of dme and boil it with a pint of water for 15 to 20 minutes at least 3 hours before you start brewing. Cool it quickly in the sink down to about 80, pour it in a big jar or pitcher, add a packet of yeast, and loosely rubberband some plastic wrap over the top. Not exactly standard practice, but a friend of mine swears by it and makes some great high gravity brews.

 

[heywatchthis]

First, I would absolutely add some sugar, but corn sugar is a waste of money...use plain old table sugar. I would pull out some of the LME in favor of table sugar and keep the DME the same. I would drop the c-pils, as 1 pound of crystal will give you good head retention. I would personally shoot for 60-70 IBUs for this beer if you're trying for a balanced, age-able wheat-wine.

If you re-hydrate the notty, there is absolutely no reason to make a starter with 3 packs...that's plenty of yeast for that beer.

 

[BeerLogic]

First, I would absolutely add some sugar, but corn sugar is a waste of money...use plain old table sugar.

I don't know about a waste of money. Table sugar runs about $1.25 a pound and corn sugar $1.50. The extra $.50 for 2 pounds to avoid weird cidery flavors seems worth it to me.

I would also agree with you about the yeast if the op has the means to sufficiently aerate the wort and maybe adds some yeast nutrient. At the very least it should be aerated with an aquarium pump for 15 minutes, or that yeast is never going to chew through all that sugar.

 

[syd138]

I did forget to mention that I was going to use yeast nutrient also.

Thats a good point about the carapils.. the crystal should be sufficient for head retention.

I think that if I do 3 pack of Nottingham, if I don't get low enough when I rack to the secondary, I'm going to throw a pack of EC-1118 in there to finish it off.

According to the Terrapin website, for Gamma Ray, it is 40 IBUs and 11% ABV.. so I think if I get around 50, that should be good. I don't want this to be too hoppy.

 

[dcp27]

I agree with ditching the c-pils, its already in the extract and with 1lb of crystal its not needed. without any sugar, id bump up the IBUs a lil since you won't get a low enough fg to balance it. 40-70IBUs would be fine in this. if you use sugar, regular table sugar works fine. notty is fine to use in this, but personally I'd go with S-05 instead for dry. 2 packs in either case is enough.

That is going to finish really sweet unless you dry it out in the secondary with a high attenuating yeast, like a champagne yeast....For the hops, that really depends on your taste. 45 IBUs is right in the middle of evenly balanced for your original gravity. If you want it a little hoppy, you could go as high as 55 IBUs before it starts to become IPA-like.

none of this is correct. notty is in fact a high attenuator, champagne yeast won't do anything since it can only consume simple sugar, and55IBUs will not come close to making this IPA like nor hoppy

 

[BeerLogic]

none of this is correct. notty is in fact a high attenuator, champagne yeast won't do anything since it can only consume simple sugar, and55IBUs will not come close to making this IPA like nor hoppy

It's a high attenuator if (and in this situation I would say this is a big if) it can survive the high alcohol environment it's creating. I agree that champagne yeast won't attenuate any higher. The difference is that champagne yeast doesn't crap out until the alcohol level gets much higher than anything the notty will be able to tolerate unless the op makes a starter and aerates enough to get the yeast really going.

I'm sure some folks have had fine results doing exactly what the op plans to do, but I doubt reliably so. I've seen a quite a few barleywines and double IPAs that had to be rescued with champagne yeast, and it worked.

As far as hop levels go, have a look at this:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/hop-malt-balance-57129/

At the projected OG, 60 IBUs is pushing the upper limits of "hoppy" though not quite bordering on "extra hoppy". That is what I meant. I don't typically brew anything in the OG range we're talking about here, but I know from plenty of experience that 60 IBUs in a 1.090 OG beer can be brutally hoppy if done right.

 

[dcp27]

notty will survive 10.6%, IIRC it tops out around 12%. also, you don''t make starters with dry yeast. not sure where you saw that champagne yeast saved anything, but I call BS. its only useful for simple sugars, i.e. guaranteeing carbonation, so unless an ale yeast used its last efforts breaking down maltiose et al or someone added amylase, it aint gunna help much.

im well aware of that chart and its misleadings. hoppy and bitter are two entirely different things. 60IBUs doesnt make something hoppy, only late additions do that. also, you can't judge bitterness on OG alone, FG has at least as much of a factor in it, and so do dark malts (not that there are any in this). 60IBUs in this, would put it about on par with the bitterness of an amber ale. if the OP plans to drink this young, 45 is fine, if plans to lay it down for some time, I'd go higher since bitterness fades.

 

[BeerLogic]

notty will survive 10.6%, IIRC it tops out around 12%. also, you don''t make starters with dry yeast. not sure where you saw that champagne yeast saved anything, but I call BS. its only useful for simple sugars, i.e. guaranteeing carbonation, so unless an ale yeast used its last efforts breaking down maltiose et al or someone added amylase, it aint gunna help much.

im well aware of that chart and its misleadings. hoppy and bitter are two entirely different things. 60IBUs doesnt make something hoppy, only late additions do that. also, you can't judge bitterness on OG alone, FG has at least as much of a factor in it, and so do dark malts (not that there are any in this). 60IBUs in this, would put it about on par with the bitterness of an amber ale. if the OP plans to drink this young, 45 is fine, if plans to lay it down for some time, I'd go higher since bitterness fades.

Here's an excerpt of BYO's style article on barleywine:

-- "Some brewers ferment their barleywines with wine yeast. Homebrewers have made barleywines with Pasteur Champagne yeast and had good results. However, there is no need to use a wine yeast if you choose a suitable beer yeast. Because barleywine finishes with a gravity of 1.024 to 1.032 and an alcohol content of 6.7 to 9.6 percent by weight and 8.5 to 12.2 percent by volume, you will want an attenuative yeast (one that ferments wort thoroughly) with a high alcohol tolerance, such as Wyeast 1056 (American ale). Mixing yeast varieties often creates a more interesting beer.

Fermenting a barleywine is a big job for yeast. To help them out, the brewer should provide a well-aerated wort and pitch an especially large volume of yeast." --

Pretty much the same deal here. I'm not sure that 3 packets of dry yeast constitute "an especially large volume".

As for hoppiness, that's exactly what I said, it depends on how the hops are being utilized. I was just warning that, for instance, if the 60 IBUs come from a large late addition, the result could end up being much hoppier than the op wants, and possibly more bitter as well, noting that the original target was 45. I would say in a wheat wine, hoppiness or bitterness is out of character. I've never made or tasted a hoppy wheat beer that was anything more than mediocre.

 

[dcp27]

I'm not sure that 3 packets of dry yeast constitute "an especially large volume"

3 packets of dry yeast would be 600 billion cells, or enough to ferment a 1.190 beer, so I'd say that it qualifies. I highly recommend checking out mr malty for some info about yeast and starters, particularly the pitching rate calculator: http://www.mrmalty.com/index.php

I was just warning that, for instance, if the 60 IBUs come from a large late addition, the result could end up being much hoppier than the op wants

why would anyone think to use late additions to up IBUs, particularly in a beer not meant to be hoppy? anyways, terrapins beer finishes at a much lower gravity then this will, so it can get away with only 40IBUs. to have the same balance as that beer, this would need to have around 55-60IBUs.

 

[BeerLogic]

Ok, I can see that this is kind of a pointless argument without actually doing the experiment to find out. When I've got some time I'll make four 1.100 OG worts with pale dme, ferment two of them with dry yeast and no starter, two with dry yeast built to a starter, and hop one of each type to 45 and 60 IBU's respectively using primarily bittering additions and post the results.

600 billion cells? Yes. 600 billion active cells? We'll see.

Also, most of my beers, unless it's really not appropriate to the style, get about half of their IBUs from late additions, and almost all of them come out delicious, with one notable exception: my attempt at a hoppy hefeweizen (although this might have to do with some residual chlorine in my brew water).

 

[dcp27]

two with dry yeast built to a starter

again, you don't make starters with dry yeasts. it depletes the reserves the manufactures put in, so you'd be defeating the purpose. I look forward to hearing the results though.

600 billion cells? Yes. 600 billion active cells? We'll see.

you gunna count them to find out? doubt it if you want, but this beer only needs half that anyway so its a pointless argument


anyways, to get back on topic:

1) if you want this to finish as dry as gamma ray, add sugar. if you want it more weizenbock like, dont. id add 1-2lbs, and any sugar will do.

2) I'd up the IBUs if you don't add sugar. 40IBUs works in Gamma Ray cuz it finishes so low (FG~1.011). without sugar, this will finish in the 20s (DME is only around 75% fermentable, crystal is even less), and thus need higher IBUs to balance it. with sugar, 50IBUs is a good goal. without it, 60 would be better

3) depends how neutral you want the yeast. notty will be fine and is more than capable of handling this OG. no need for a starter with dry yeast, and 2 packs is all you need. IMO, Fermentis S-05 (chico strain, same as White labs 001 or wyeast 1056) is even more neutral, as attenuative, and better quality so it'd be my pick. if you want a lil more out of the yeast without having to make a starter, Fermentis T-58 or S-33 may be better fits. however, i've never used T-58 and I don't like S-33 so I can't really support that statement.
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/60-Beer/60-11_product_rangeHB.asp

 

[BeerLogic]

again, you don't make starters with dry yeasts. it depletes the reserves the manufactures put in, so you'd be defeating the purpose. I look forward to hearing the results though.

Last post on this: this is entirely absurd. A friend and I have been using the starter method I described above with dry yeast and we have been getting great results. The last time we brewed an imperial stout with S-04 it blew it's top after six hours even though we had a half inch blowoff hose affixed. 1.115 to 1.029 in a week!

 

[dcp27]

Last post on this: this is entirely absurd. A friend and I have been using the starter method I described above with dry yeast and we have been getting great results. The last time we brewed an imperial stout with S-04 it blew it's top after six hours even though we had a half inch blowoff hose affixed. 1.115 to 1.029 in a week!

yup, you're right. perhaps you should fill Jamil et al and the yeast manufacturers in on this since you're an expert. im not saying starters dont work with dry yeast, just that its entirely unnecessary and a waste. if you want to continue to make starters with dry yeast cuz its what you've done in the past and gotten good results, go ahead, but dont try to tell others you need a starter with it when its common knowledge you don't. btw, if you need more convincing, feel free to scan thru the recipe database and see how many done with dry yeasts use a starter.

 

[syd138]

Ok, I brewed this up on Wednesday.. its still bubbling away like crazy. My house is at 68 degrees which is nice. The HBS was out of Wheat LME so I had to go with DME.. which is ok, but we had to do it little by little and stir the heck out of it so it would burn on the bottom of the pot.

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
13.00 lb Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 92.86 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 7.14 %
1.75 oz Nugget [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 47.8 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 4.2 IBU
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
2 Pkgs Safale US-05 Ale Yeast (DCL Yeast #US-05) Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.108 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.24 %
Bitterness: 52.0 IBU
Est Color: 14.0 SRM

 

[Desrever]

Ok, I brewed this up on Wednesday.. its still bubbling away like crazy. My house is at 68 degrees which is nice. The HBS was out of Wheat LME so I had to go with DME.. which is ok, but we had to do it little by little and stir the heck out of it so it would burn on the bottom of the pot.

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
13.00 lb Wheat Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 92.86 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 7.14 %
1.75 oz Nugget [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 47.8 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 4.2 IBU
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
2 Pkgs Safale US-05 Ale Yeast (DCL Yeast #US-05) Yeast-Ale

Est Original Gravity: 1.108 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 10.24 %
Bitterness: 52.0 IBU
Est Color: 14.0 SRM

How's this stuff looking ?