HELP with all grain brewing!

[invmgmt]

Sorry guys I am basically a newbie on this. I say basically a newbie instead of completely a newbie because I did make a couple brews AG about 17 years ago with my Phil's Lauter Tun. I am ready to get back into AG and I am building a setup with Rubbermaid coolers, which should retain the heat better than the old Phil's buckets.

Here is my challenge, I went to the LHBS to inquire about getting the grain for a batch and they looked at me like I was an idiot. This store has a bunch of employees that are quite condescending when you are not an "expert". They informed me that they could not even begin to give me any guidance since the know nothing about the efficiency of the system. How am I supposed to know the efficiency until I actually sparge?

I know that there is a bit of math involved in this process, but can someone get me a good starting point here that I can build from?

 

[Bodesbrew]

Another case of LHBS jerks! What are you planning on brewing? I usually figure that out first and then look at a bunch of recipes on the webs and figure out what I like about them and kind of create my own recipe...

 

[ghosthef]

My first batch of all grain I built up a 12 lb grain batch and so misc hops and just went for it. When it was all said and don't, I had made beer. Seriously,...I was very happy with the end result. Now I use Beersmith to help with all my recipes. Don't get intimidated...everything you do, even if you make a mistake, teaches you something. Happy brewing!!!

 

[Gunfighter04]

Order an all grain kit from one of the online supply places. It should list an estimated gravity. If you hit your temps right you should be able to then adjust up or down. Most of the online kits estimate around a 60% efficiency, but I think they're a great baseline on a lot of decent recipe's. I'm sure there's a scientific method, I know that beersmith (brewing software) Has some canned coefficients for common MLT's such as coolers, stainless steel, etc. If you just want to brew get one and go to town. You could then go back to your LHBS and just buy the grains and be able to adjust as necessary.

 

[csboehm]

Frankly, if the guys at your LHBS are unwilling to help, it is likely they are unable to help. This should be well within the realm for "experts".

It would be helpful to know if you are batch sparging or fly sparging. Batch sparging is much easier, but you may get a reduction in efficiency. If I were you, I would assume a lower efficiency, say around 65% - 70% for a 60 minute mash. You would rather end up with a higher gravity than expected rather than a lower gravity, as you can easily compensate with an addition of water. Conversely, you could just enjoy a stronger beer.

It is important to note that several factors can affect the efficiency including, but not limited to, mash thickness (the ratio of water to grains), mash temperature, sparge method, and grain crush. In reality, you will need to get a feel for your brewing system, but that only comes through experience. I think assuming a 65 - 70% efficiency is a good starting point.

There are several free calculators available online that allow you to plug in all of the variables (system efficiency, grains, yeast, hops, batch size, boil time, etc) and see the estimated outcome of your beer. The first time through you may not be exactly to spec, but I'm willing to bet you'll have a darn tasty brew.

 

[FATC1TY]

What would you like to try and make?

I have Beersmith, and some recipes that are pretty simple, or if you have something in mind. I could assist you in getting something done up.

Then you can go and simply buy the grain. Even if you miss some of the numbers, it'll get you close enough to work out and find out your efficiency to dial it in after a few brews.

 

[invmgmt]

I am fly sparging. I built a rotating arm that works much better than the one I had with my old Phil's system (that one worked pretty well too, but this one will spin with very little pressure). Can't wait to get this batch going.

I will look into the kits online.

Thanks for the friendly responses

 

[Frogmanx82]

Seems like you could just tell them the grain bill and they would fill it. Recipes are all over the place. Efficiency doesn't really affect the beer that much and what business is it of theirs what your system efficiency is anyway.

 

[mattd2]

Firstly if I were you I would not step foot back in that LHBS. If that is the way they want to run their business then they should not expect new cutomers. Any good LHBS that a guy walks into a basically say (I may be putting words in your mouth here sorry) "hey guys, used to brew 17 years ago and want to get back into it. Still got all my old stuff for doing all grain so any advice of putting a recipe together?" should really be able to help.
I agree they should ask what you effecicy is on your gear but once you remind them that you last brewed 17 years ago and don't know, if it was me I'd just say "ok so you first beer is probably going to be a bit hit or miss numbers wise untill you dial in you numbers again, but lets assume 70% and work around that. Just note down what you did get vlume and OG wise and next time you come in we'll work it out better" - see what I did there, repeat business... not ignoring/harrasing new customers so they do not return.

Anyway enough ranting... Have a look in the recipe section on here. Most recipes are build around the 70 - 80% efficiency range. What type of beer are you looking to do first?

For the record, your post actually makes you sound like more of an expert than those LHBS guys... if they can't give guidence unless they are spoonfeed every single minor detail then they are useless

 

[csboehm]

I asked one of the guys at my LHBS about yeast attentuation a few weeks ago. He clearly had no idea what I was talking about.

 

[Daver77]

So stupid they should have been able to help. Just brew and take an OG and FG reading when you get the software just figure your efficiency then no need to worry now. I would be more concerned about getting the balance right on the hops. (BTU)

 

[kingwood-kid]

Most recipes are written for either 70% or whatever the person who brewed it got when they brewed it. For your first AG in 17 years, I would assume 55-60%, and adjust the base malt accordingly. With enough practice and sparge water, that number should climb over 70%. If you keep some DME on hand, you can easily compensate for low efficiency. It also helps to not worry too much if your gravity is a few points off. As the president of my brew club says, "You'll still make beer."

 

[captainkirk83]

My first batch of all grain I built up a 12 lb grain batch and so misc hops and just went for it. When it was all said and don't, I had made beer. Seriously,...I was very happy with the end result. Now I use Beersmith to help with all my recipes. Don't get intimidated...everything you do, even if you make a mistake, teaches you something. Happy brewing!!!

I like it

 

[invmgmt]

Well, brewed my first All Grain batch in 17 years and i don't think it went well. I brewed a recipe from the site https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f65/raging-red-irish-red-ale-239188/. It states that the OG should be 1.059 but i got 1.022. What????

I did a fly sparge using the Cheap & Easy 10 Gallon Rubbermaid MLT Conversion from this site. It took 34 minutes to sparge 5 gallons and it sat in the MLT for 45 minutes before i sparged. I did the iodine test before I sparged and it was good to go.

So...what am I doing wrong??

 

[mattd2]

Well, brewed my first All Grain batch in 17 years and i don't think it went well. I brewed a recipe from the site https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f65/raging-red-irish-red-ale-239188/. It states that the OG should be 1.059 but i got 1.022. What????

I did a fly sparge using the Cheap & Easy 10 Gallon Rubbermaid MLT Conversion from this site. It took 34 minutes to sparge 5 gallons and it sat in the MLT for 45 minutes before i sparged. I did the iodine test before I sparged and it was good to go.

So...what am I doing wrong??

What was the grain crush like? only thing I am thinking.

 

[invmgmt]

I bought the supplies from Brewers Warehouse and they crushed them. As for how well they were crushed...I have nothing to compare it to. So, I can't really answer that with any degree of authority.

 

[invmgmt]

Sorry...Brewmasters Warehouse, not brewers warehouse

 

[csboehm]

What about mash thickness and temperature? Where you able to check the mash pH?

 

[invmgmt]

i started the mash at 158 but it was at 152 after 45 minutes. I had a little over 3 gallons of water in the mash. I don't know how to check the pH, sorry.

 

[csboehm]

How many lbs of grain?

 

[invmgmt]

9 lbs

 

[csboehm]

Wait... is 1.022 the gravity before or after the boil?

 

[invmgmt]

Wait... is 1.022 the gravity before or after the boil?

Before

 

[csboehm]

And what was the volume of wort you collected?

 

[GrogNerd]

Sorry guys I am basically a newbie on this. I say basically a newbie instead of completely a newbie because I did make a couple brews AG about 17 years ago with my Phil's Lauter Tun. I am ready to get back into AG and I am building a setup with Rubbermaid coolers, which should retain the heat better than the old Phil's buckets.

Here is my challenge, I went to the LHBS to inquire about getting the grain for a batch and they looked at me like I was an idiot. This store has a bunch of employees that are quite condescending when you are not an "expert". They informed me that they could not even begin to give me any guidance since the know nothing about the efficiency of the system. How am I supposed to know the efficiency until I actually sparge?

I know that there is a bit of math involved in this process, but can someone get me a good starting point here that I can build from?

order your ingredients/equipment online, then go back to the a-holes at the LHBS store and let EVERYONE know that you had to buy online and "oh, so sorry... I thought you didn't want my money"

 

[eric19312]

What temp was your hydrometer reading taken at? If you took the reading at 150 on a 60F calibrated hydrometer, your actual gravity would be about 1.041. For a pre-boil gravity for your grain bill that would seem reasonable.

 

[invmgmt]

And what was the volume of wort you collected?

About 6 gallons. The. I added 1/2 gallon to get it to 6.5 for the boil

 

[invmgmt]

What temp was your hydrometer reading taken at? If you took the reading at 150 on a 60F calibrated hydrometer, your actual gravity would be about 1.041. For a pre-boil gravity for your grain bill that would seem reasonable.

Yes, it was taken right out of the sparge. I didn't take a temp but the sparge water that I used to fly sparge was at 175

 

[eric19312]

Ok I bet your mash was just fine. Did you get an original gravity before pitching the yeast? At about what temp? And an approximate quantity of wort transferred to the fermentor?

 

[csboehm]

A couple of things I picked up on:

1. The original gravity specified in the recipe always refers to the post-boil gravity at roughly room temperature. Your gravity was still low, but not as bad as you made it out to be.

2. 45 isn't terribly long for a mash conversion. Most recipes call for 60 - 90 minutes including a mash-out period. This could result in incomplete conversion.

3. I've only done fly sparging a handful of times, so I am certainly no expert. That being said. I feel like 30 minutes for fly sparging is awfully fast. If your grain bed is not properly set you could end up with some channeling. This means the sparge water is running down the same path through the grain bed rather than filtering through the grain bed uniformly. This could result in a large volume of unrinsed grains, leaving precious sugars behind.

I hope this helps! You may want to switch to batch sparging, as it's easier, faster, and the drop in efficiency really isn't much at all. I consistently get 75% efficiency batch sparging with a 60 mash. Best of luck.

 

[invmgmt]

Ok I bet your mash was just fine. Did you get an original gravity before pitching the yeast? At about what temp? And an approximate quantity of wort transferred to the fermentor?

The post boil gravity was 1.043, temp about 75, just under 5 gallons into the fermenter

 

[40watt]

Right. If anything goes wrong with your fly sparge, batch sparging ends up being far more efficient. I didn't want to worry about channeling so I went with batch sparging. I get 80%. I don't need to be any more efficient than that.

 

[invmgmt]

A couple of things I picked up on:

1. The original gravity specified in the recipe always refers to the post-boil gravity at roughly room temperature. Your gravity was still low, but not as bad as you made it out to be.

2. 45 isn't terribly long for a mash conversion. Most recipes call for 60 - 90 minutes including a mash-out period. This could result in incomplete conversion.

3. I've only done fly sparging a handful of times, so I am certainly no expert. That being said. I feel like 30 minutes for fly sparging is awfully fast. If your grain bed is not properly set you could end up with some channeling. This means the sparge water is running down the same path through the grain bed rather than filtering through the grain bed uniformly. This could result in a large volume of unrinsed grains, leaving precious sugars behind.

I hope this helps! You may want to switch to batch sparging, as it's easier, faster, and the drop in efficiency really isn't much at all. I consistently get 75% efficiency batch sparging with a 60 mash. Best of luck.

I should have let it sit longer in the mash but the iodine test seemed to imply it was done. I will let it sit longer

As for the fly sparge taking 30 minutes, it was quite slow at the start, and I was surprised that it was done with 5 gallons in that 30 minutes. I will try to slow it down. I did make sure that there was always some water on top and the rotating arm should prevent channeling.

How do I calculate efficiency? What little there is...

 

[eric19312]

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html


You did not specify your grain bill. Worst case 9 pounds 2-row....if your 9 pounds included anything else you would have fewer fermentable sugars and your efficiency would be a bit higher than calculated below 2-row contributes 37 points per pound....
37 x 9 lbs = 333 points
You ended up with a bit less than 5 gal in the fermentor, lets call it 5 gal even at end of boil.
333 / 5gal = 66.6. Meaning with 100% efficiency you would get 1.067 beer.

Assuming your hydrometer is calibrated at 60F, your corrected SG was 1.045

45 / 67 = 67% efficiency

This seems to be on low side of normal but not a disaster. Especially for first AG batch. Now you have a number to work against. Next recipe plan for 70% efficiency for a beer, and estimate target SG. Say you target 1.050. Then see what you would get if efficiency hits 80% and 85% and even 65%.. If those all sound drinkable, brew a batch, take better notes on your gravity and volume measurements, recalculate efficiency, and use that number as your basis for next batch.

In reading posts I think most homebrewers do see so variability in their efficiencies some of that is a result of planned changes...I'm going no sparge this batch or going to try a decocotion mash, others are just uncontrolled variables... So I think it makes sense to think about target original gravity when designing a recipe, but to also then look at the expected OG at high and low ends of the possible efficiency range. Once you have a few batches brewed and recorded you will be able to tighten your range.

 

[invmgmt]

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html


You did not specify your grain bill. Worst case 9 pounds 2-row....if your 9 pounds included anything else you would have fewer fermentable sugars and your efficiency would be a bit higher than calculated below 2-row contributes 37 points per pound....

How do I look up points per pound? I used 8 lbs of 2-row, 1 lbs of Caraaroma, 1/2 lbs of Carafoam amd 1/2 lbs of Melanoiden...So, 10 lbs not 9

 

[csboehm]

I also looked at the link for your mash tun build and I saw that it uses a stainless braid. From what I understand, fly sparging with a stainless braid is generally not recommended as it does promote channeling.

 

[40watt]

OP has been out of the game for 17 years. Back then fly sparging was the way. Batch sparging with the braid works wonferfully.

Homebrew practices have evolved to better suit the homebrewer by dropping comercial practices like the secondary ferment and fly sparging.

Do some research on batch sparging, and I think you will be pleased.

 

[GrogNerd]

OP has been out of the game for 17 years. Back then fly sparging was the way. Batch sparging with the braid works wonferfully.

Homebrew practices have evolved to better suit the homebrewer by dropping comercial practices like the secondary ferment and fly sparging.

Do some research on batch sparging, and I think you will be pleased.

same situation as me, 18 years between brews

 

[invmgmt]

OP has been out of the game for 17 years. Back then fly sparging was the way. Batch sparging with the braid works wonferfully.

Homebrew practices have evolved to better suit the homebrewer by dropping comercial practices like the secondary ferment and fly sparging.

Do some research on batch sparging, and I think you will be pleased.

any recommended link to an article on Batch sparging?

 

[Jon73]

any recommended link to an article on Batch sparging?

I used to use 1.25 qts of water per pound of grain to mash, then I would batch sparge with the exact same volume. I've since purchased the Beersmith program and use those volumes, but the first method works just fine for getting your feet wet.