Help with 100% RO water for Helles lager

[jmcquesten]

I'm looking for help building a Helles water profile from 100% RO water. I'm trying to use EZ Water calculator 3.0.

I'm just starting with "building" water and due to that, here are some of my issues:

I don't have a PH meter. I know they are important, but I don't have one yet and won't be getting one before this brew. So, I can't test the PH.

I'm using RO from a machine at a store. While the machine has up to date service, I can't be sure the quality of the RO water (TDS, remaining chloramines, etc.). And I don't know the alkalinity or anything else about it.

For this 12 gallon batch, I'll be using all RO. I don't have a Wards water test for that water or my tap water. Up till now, I've been mixing tap water and RO at about 50% and treating with campden tablets for chloramine.

My questions are: What do I use for the staring profile in the spreadsheet?
Can I treat all the water at the same time? The recipe is mostly pilsner malt (20 lbs), a little munich (2 lbs.), and a bit of carapils, carafoam, and melanoidin, so I need to lower the PH. Is 5 ml lactic acid (88%) a good idea to get it to a 5.42 ph? I'm using an oz of acid malt in addition, but it didn't get it low enough and I have lactic acid (88%) on hand. I'm not really sure where to start with additions, but i have on hand Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, Lactic Acid (88%), and Epsom salt. I started playing with the additions and to get to a malty beer profile, on the lowest end, I entered 10 g CaCl2, 7 g Epsom salt, and 5 ml lactic acid. These numbers got me right at the lowest end recommended by the spreadsheet, but that's assuming the starting water profile numbers are all a zero, which i'm sure they're not. Should I start there? Does anyone (@YOOPER, @ajdelange) have a better recommendation on an easy water profile for unknown quality RO?

 

[Yooper]

Hmmm. I have a couple of thoughts about the RO water. You can get a cheap TDS meter at places like Wal-Mart, to check the total dissolved solids, or a cheap aquarium tester.

I have a super cheap (under $5) aquarium test kit that tests for hardness, both carbonate hardness and general hardness. If it takes one drop to change color, the carbonate hardness is under 17 ppm. I use this to check my own RO water and see how it's working. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003SNCHMA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If you know your alkalinity, we can help guess the rest.

 

[jmcquesten]

So an aquarium test kit will allow me to find the alkalinity? And I need a TDS meter? Thanks for the help. I'll try to get that stuff and report back after I do.

This was an award winning beer last year and I'm trying to get the 40 pts up to 45. I'm hoping the right water will do it.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I am very curious about this as well...I just brewed a Helles last weekend and made what I thought to be appropriate water/ acid malt additions. Do you mind providing your recipe? I will gladly borrow an award winning brew!

 

[brewing_clown]

This is a good resource:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Edel_Hell

 

[McKnuckle]

My suggestion based on a successful Helles brew that I have on tap now... Add CaCl to reach 40 ppm Ca. Don't add any other salts. Then get the pH down into the 5.4 range (or slightly lower) using 88% lactic acid.

 

[jmcquesten]

This is a good resource:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Edel_Hell

That is a very good write up. Some of my process is similar to that. I'll be changing some of it to be more similar. Along with building an appropriate water profile, I'll also be trying more of the "trivial" low oxygen techniques this round. Boiling water before mashing and fermenting in corny kegs under slight pressure for the first time.

 

[Yooper]

That is a very good write up. Some of my process is similar to that. I'll be changing some of it to be more similar. Along with building an appropriate water profile, I'll also be trying more of the "trivial" low oxygen techniques this round. Boiling water before mashing and fermenting in corny kegs under slight pressure for the first time.

I"d go with 40 ppm or so of calcium (you can do less but I'd still stick there) and get there by using calcium choride. I don't see the need for gypsum, but it can't hurt (as is that profile). You will still maybe need some acid or acid malt to get you to 5.4 or so.

 

[McKnuckle]

^...which is what I wrote in post #6, almost to the letter! So looks like OP is good to go.

 

[jmcquesten]

Hmmm. I have a couple of thoughts about the RO water. You can get a cheap TDS meter at places like Wal-Mart, to check the total dissolved solids, or a cheap aquarium tester.

I have a super cheap (under $5) aquarium test kit that tests for hardness, both carbonate hardness and general hardness. If it takes one drop to change color, the carbonate hardness is under 17 ppm. I use this to check my own RO water and see how it's working. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003SNCHMA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

If you know your alkalinity, we can help guess the rest.

Ok. I got the TDS meter and the test kit that you linked. The TDS in the ro water read 15 on the meter. I'm not sure I fully understand the test kit because it doesn't have a color comparison chart. I did what the directions said and it took like 4 drops to get the KH looking yellow (how yellow should it be?), and 6 drops to get the GH kinda greenish tinted. Again, not sure how green or yellow it's supposed to be. I noticed a slight tint in each after just one drop, but I wouldn't say it was really that color. The green in the GH is barely green.

If I look on the chart, 4 drops in the KH is 71.6 ppm

And 6 in the GH is 107.4 ppm. I added more drops to get a little greener. 10 drops is 179 ppm.

So, what does all this mean?

 

[ajdelange]

You are sort of wasting your time and money on a test kit for water that measures 15 mg/L TDS with a conductivity meter. Just assume that half of it is calcium (7 mg ~ 7/20 = 0.35 mEq/L), that that is matched by an equivalent amount of bicarbonate (0.35*50) = 7 mg/L as CaC03) alkalinity, ignore those and proceed. IOW the TDS meter has verified that the water is essentially ion free. No further measurement is necessary.

 

[jmcquesten]

You are sort of wasting your time and money on a test kit for water that measures 15 mg/L TDS with a conductivity meter. Just assume that half of it is calcium (7 mg ~ 7/20 = 0.35 mEq/L), that that is matched by an equivalent amount of bicarbonate (0.35*50) = 7 mg/L as CaC03) alkalinity, ignore those and proceed. IOW the TDS meter has verified that the water is essentially ion free. No further measurement is necessary.

I was taking Yooper's suggestion. I might have misunderstood the need for both. Anyway, what does this mean for the water for this weekends Helles?

 

[ajdelange]

It means it it virtually ion free and can be assumed to be so. Add a half tsp of calcium chloride prills to each 5 gal and brew. You don't need to do anything else.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

if your TDS reads 15, then your GH and KH have to be less than one drop each into 5 ml of sample RO water. You have nigh-on distilled water quality RO there. Most of the distilled I've checked comes in at about half your TDS.

If you do the GH/KH test on 50 ml at a time instead of 5 ml, then 10 drops will equal 1 drop, and your precision will increase ten-fold. Even better would be to use 100 ml of RO water, and consider each GH or KH drop to be 1/20 of a drop.

But for your water this is pretty much a moot point. Your alkalinity (KH) is highly likely on the order of 7-8 ppm. Each GH or KH drop added = 17.8 ppm into 5 ml. Or 1.78 ppm into 50 ml. Or 0.89 ppm into 100 ml.

 

[jmcquesten]

It means it it virtually ion free and can be assumed to be so. Add a half tsp of calcium chloride prills to each 5 gal and brew. You don't need to do anything else.

Awesome. So just add calcium chloride? I don't need epsom salt or gypsum? I assume I still need to add enough lactic acid to my total water to get me as close to 5.4 in the ez calculator as possible? Thanks for the help so far, water chemistry is new to me and I'm trying to get some understanding of what I should be doing and why. I wasn't great in chemistry when I took it, and it hasn't gotten better since, so I'm trying to ease into it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Just my personal opinion here, but EZ Water (out of the box, unmodified) seems to me to come in rather consistently higher with its mash pH predictions than most other mash pH software, so for that one I would shoot for 5.25 and call it 5.4. YMMV, so best to verify with a pH meter. Either that, or compare EZ to a few others and see where they all fall with regard to their respective predicted mash pH.

But if you do in fact end up at 5.2(ish) pH I would not worry. I would just call me a fool and then take notes for the next time and move on.

 

[jmcquesten]

Just my personal opinion here, but EZ Water (out of the box, unmodified) seems to me to come in rather consistently higher with its mash pH predictions than most other mash pH software, so for that one I would shoot for 5.25 and call it 5.4. YMMV, so best to verify with a pH meter. Either that, or compare EZ to a few others and see where they all fall with regard to predicted mash pH.

But if you do in fact end up at 5.2(ish) pH I would not worry, I would just take notes for the next time and move on.

I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately, I don't have a ph meter yet, so I'll be "winging it". I plan to make any adjustments to the total water while heating, so mash and sparge water will be exactly the same. So you're saying that if I'm using ez water calculator, I need to increase the acid additions a little more to try to hit 5.2? If that takes 7-10 mL lactic acid, that will be ok? At what point is it too much acid?

(this is for a 12 gallon batch)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately, I don't have a ph meter yet, so I'll be "winging it". I plan to make any adjustments to the total water while heating, so mash and sparge water will be exactly the same. So you're saying that if I'm using ez water calculator, I need to increase the acid additions a little more to try to hit 5.2? If that takes 7-10 mL lactic acid, that will be ok? At what point is it too much acid?

(this is for a 12 gallon batch)

Actually, I said I would shoot for 5.25. And I said YMMV.

As to lactic acid, others will argue differently, but IMO, for 7 gallons of mash water, 7 ml may not be out of the question. But then I have a pH meter, and I can incrementally creep up on it, and with the meter, I would stop adding at pH 5.4. But by then the mash is too far along toward completion for any of this to matter anyway. pH tests drawn at 10 minutes will be read at room temperature at about the 20 minute mark, and by then 85% or more of conversion is done already... That's why all you can do is take notes. But with no pH meter you have no notes to take...

 

[jmcquesten]

Actually, I said I would shoot for 5.25. And I said YMMV.

As to lactic acid, others will argue differently, but IMO, for 7 gallons of mash water, 7 ml may not be out of the question. But then I have a pH meter, and I can incrementally creep up on it, and with the meter, I would stop adding at pH 5.4. But by then the mash is too far along toward completion for any of this to matter anyway. pH tests drawn at 10 minutes will be read at room temperature at about the 20 minute mark, and by then 85% or more of conversion is done already... That's why all you can do is take notes. But with no pH meter you have no notes to take...

Sorry. Yes, I saw 5.25. I'll give it a shot and work on getting a ph meter. Thanks for the help.

 

[Tommydee]

Here's what bruin water told me, I think I targeted somewhere in between one of Kais pilsner profiles here on HBT and a Munich boiled in the bru'n water tool....decided to not match carbonate. This was for a 7.5 gallon single infusion BIAB on 5 gallon batch. My pH was right at 5.13, then 5.24 a bit lower than target 5.4. Drinking a glass now, 4 weeks after brew day, tastes pretty damn good, but I'm a beginner. It is not much beyond RO, almost more of a pils profile. Maybe cut back on the lactic acid.

Very simple

Calcium chloride 2.2 g
Epsom salt 2.2
Lactic acid 3.7 ml

TDS on my water is 016.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

pH meter or none, there are several free mash pH programs available, and EZ Water is not the only game in town, so you can still compare its mash pH output with a few others.

 

[jmcquesten]

pH meter or none, there are several free mash pH programs available, and EZ Water is not the only game in town, so you can still compare its mash pH output with a few others.

Ok. I just didn't know where to start with the unknown RO quality. I wasn't sure what to put for a starting profile. I'll look at some of the other water calculators, but from what I remember, they seemed a little more involved than EZ water.

On a side note, my tap water reads about 45 TDS. I don't know if that's good or bad, but that doesn't matter at the moment. I just thought I'd test that since I got the TDS meter.

Also, how do I treat carapils and melanoidin malts when entering in the calculator? I assumed the carapils to be a very light crystal malt, but what about the melanoidin? Is it light roast, base malt, or crystal malt?

 

[jmcquesten]

Just tested the RO and tap water again. The readings went up a bit. RO 16 TDS tap water 69 TDS. Not sure why the same sample would change sitting on the counter. The temperature was the same.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Also, how do I treat carapils and melanoidin malts when entering in the calculator? I assumed the carapils to be a very light crystal malt, but what about the melanoidin? Is it light roast, base malt, or crystal malt?

Melanoidin is a low diastatic power base malt in my book. And (although I no longer use it) I would just add CaraPils as a 2 or 3 Lovibond base malt. Crystal and caramel malts 1) have no diastatic power, and 2) do not require mashing (whereas CaraPils does require mashing).

 

[mabrungard]

Just tested the RO and tap water again. The readings went up a bit. RO 16 TDS tap water 69 TDS. Not sure why the same sample would change sitting on the counter. The temperature was the same.

With only 69 ppm TDS, your tap water could be well suited for brewing already. You should have it tested to find out the content. The RO TDS is surprisingly high given the tap water quality. I would expect it to be under 6 ppm, but a TDS meter is a crude instrument and the reading may not be very accurate.

 

[ajdelange]

A cheap TDS meter from China is a toy and a crude instrument for sure but a decent TDS meter is a rather sophisticated device.

But this does bring up a good point. Get some real distilled water (I only say real because in Quebec 'distilled' water sold in the pharmacies is RO water) and measure that. It should read 0 TDS. If it reads, say, 6 or 7, you might want to deduct that from your reading on the RO water. It might be cleaner than it appears to be.

But all this is moot. For a Helles all you need is 1/2 tsp CaCl2 per 5 gal. and don't forget a couple % sauermalz for the basemalt alkalinity. You can make this all very complicated if you want to but it won't get you better beer.