Help w/ eBIAB setup...what to buy?

[TANSTAAFB]

Hello All, I have been brewing for about 8 years, AG almost the entire time. I switched to BIAB a couple of years ago and love it. I have a pretty jacked up back so minimizing lifting is a priority. I would also like the capacity to brew indoors. The Robobrew is pretty appealing for a turnkey, simple setup but the $500 made me consider what else I could do for a similar price. So I headed down the rabbit hole! Now I need some help understanding the options.
One route would be a 240v induction cooktop like the Avantco ic3500. I have an induction ready 10gal kettle but it's small for the size batches and recipes I prefer to make. So I started looking at Spike kettles and saw the triclover element option. But then I need a controller which adds cost.
I'd like to keep things as simple as possible. I already have a chugger pump and a plate chiller, but I tend not to use them because it's just easier to use my IC and gravity with less to clean. I may eventually upgrade to a Jaded Hydra, but for now my priority is coming up with a system that allows me to brew 6-10 gallon batches, BIAB, indoors, with as much simplicity as possible. I would also like to explore 120v vs 240v options. Right now 240v is NOT an option but we will be moving soon so it could be. However, I might need to start with a less than ideal 120v setup that I can upgrade to 240v but I don't want to buy redundant equipment. I already have a metric f@$&ton of stuff that I'll sell when I settle on a design.
After all that rambling I'd love a discussion on the pros and cons of various setups including functionality, cost, ease of cleanup and maintenance, etc. Slainte!

 

[BeardedBrews]

It's hard to build a 6-10 gallon system and stay under that $500 mark if you're starting from scratch.

My signature has the eBIAB keg I made, it works fine and was fairly cheap. There are some things I'd suggest though:

1. Use the Auber DPSR 120
2. Spend the extra for a removable element to make cleaning easier
3. Spend the extra for a standard straight-sided pot instead of a keg to make cleaning and bag handling easier
4. IF you plan to use the element to maintain mash temperature, then spend the extra for a SS basket instead of a bag (I don't heat during mash)
5. A 15 gallon pot is big enough for a 10 gallon batch, but you have to get creative
6. It is harder to maintain temperature in a partially full kettle than a completely full one


This thread is pretty good:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=569209


Make sure your GFCI is functional before wet testing.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I guess I should also add that I am not at all inclined in the electricity department so I don't want to wire my own controller. I am handy in other areas and have built a keggle w/ copper diptube and whirlpool, added thermometers to my keggle, 10gal triclad, and 20gal aluminum kettles, built my current frenkenbrew propane BIAB stand, etc. But need a prefab option for electric.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I'm going to have to disagree with BeardedBrews.

(1) Theres nothing spectacular about Auber...cheaper stuff works exactly the same
(2) no reason whatsoever to remove the element...ever...a sponge is all you need to clean it
(4) a Wilserbag works perfect for BIAB..no need to spend money on a stainless basket
(5) I cant imagine a 10 gallon batch in a 15 gallon pot...I'm sure its done but sounds like a worrying nightmare

 

[doug293cz]

I'm going to have to disagree with BeardedBrews.

(1) Theres nothing spectacular about Auber...cheaper stuff works exactly the same
Cheap PID's do not work exactly the same as an EZBoil. No one offers anything similar to the Auber EZBoil controllers, that I am aware of. It's much easier to use than a typical PID. If you know of anything similar to the EZBoils, I'd like to hear about it.
(2) no reason whatsoever to remove the element...ever...a sponge is all you need to clean it
I wouldn't go with anything but removable. Solid SS, triclover fitting, with integrated NEMA L6-30 plug.
(4) a Wilserbag works perfect for BIAB..no need to spend money on a stainless basket
A bag alone (and Wilser's are great) is fine if you don't intend to heat and recirculate during the mash. If you want to recirculate and heat for tighter temp control or step mashing, then you will need a false bottom or basket.
(5) I cant imagine a 10 gallon batch in a 15 gallon pot...I'm sure its done but sounds like a worrying nightmare
10 gal in a 15 gal pot is doable (I've done one so far) but it will require some form of sparge, as you can't do a full volume mash for 10 gal in a 15 gal kettle.

A prefabbed controller vs. DIY will cost about 2-3X more for exactly the same components. If you have a friend who can do some DIY wiring for you, you can save some serious coin.

Anything more than a 5 gal batch (about 6.5 gal pre-boil) is not really feasible at 120 volts. You'd need to have two 120V heaters, running off of two separate circuits to have reasonable heating times. If you are going to do 120V, you should have a 20A circuit so you can use a 2000W heating element. I timed a 1600W heater, and it took about two hours to bring ~6 gal of cold tap water to a (weak) boil.

Brew on

 

[TANSTAAFB]

That's kinda what I figured re: the 120v. And another reason I've considered the Robobrew since we know it works for 5gal batches out of the box. I might repurpose my keggle to an eBIAB to ease into it and get a feel for what to and not to do. Any induction Brewer's out there to chime in?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

A prefabbed controller vs. DIY will cost about 2-3X more for exactly the same components. If you have a friend who can do some DIY wiring for you, you can save some serious coin.

Anything more than a 5 gal batch (about 6.5 gal pre-boil) is not really feasible at 120 volts. You'd need to have two 120V heaters, running off of two separate circuits to have reasonable heating times. If you are going to do 120V, you should have a 20A circuit so you can use a 2000W heating element. I timed a 1600W heater, and it took about two hours to bring ~6 gal of cold tap water to a (weak) boil.

Brew on

The Auber name is what I was referring to. Its considered "The best" around here for no good reason....Agreed I haven't seen anything like the EZboil...everyone seems to love the EZboil.

Still completely disagree with the removable SS element. I've been running a Camco 5500W element with a nut and red oring for 3 or 4 years without ever removing it. I never plan to either. Its still like new

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Can anyone point me to a build thread for a simple keggle conversion and controller? What is the difference between the EZ Boil and other PIDs?

 

[RichBenn]

Robobrew without a pump is $350. Add Bobbie's brewstick if you have two 120V circuits and get up to boil FAST.

Otherwise, forget buying expensive cladded bottom pots if you are going electric vs. flame. An inexpensive Bayou pot or similar works fine. Auberins has a sale right now on enclosures, and with an EZBoil in, you could get there fast. Type in EZBoil in the search to learn more. I would have got one of these if I had it to do over again - what a pain trying to get a cheap PID to tune without overshoot. This thing is custom designed for brewing.

Then again, I may have just done a Robobrew. Couldn't touch that for price years ago.

BTW, no easy, cheap way to convert from a 120V solution to 240. You are not going to boil big batches on a single 120V circuit, BTW.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Can anyone point me to a build thread for a simple keggle conversion and controller? What is the difference between the EZ Boil and other PIDs?

It has been a couple years since I built mine, but I haven't made any significant changes. I can help out if you've got questions around the parts list or how the components work together.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=550270


Regarding the EZ Boil vs PID there are some key differences that seem to be value adds for Auber:

1. Tuning - With a PID you have to find settings for P, I, and D that work with your system if you want the temperature to be stable. If your settings are wrong the temperature will go up and down in waves, or it won't ever get up to your desired setting. Auber uses an auto-tuning routine combined with more intuitive "Overshoot" and "Attenuation" settings. If you start it up and your temp overshoots by 3F, then set overshoot to 3 and you're good to go next time. Increase the attenuation setting to smooth out any waves.

2. Heat Control - Both devices control heat by turning the element on and off. The EZ Boil cycles it on and off very fast (60/sec) vs a budget PID (1-5/sec). In theory the slow cycles mean that the element goes Hot-Cold-Hot-Cold to achieve an average warm, vs very fast cycles where the element never gets all the way hot or all the way cold. You should see more precise boil control with the EZ Boil.

3. Ease of Use - This is connected with #1 in a way, but the EZ-Boil's dial control is very intuitive. Also the EZ Boil will automatically apply full power while it heats up to boil and then cut the power back when it's close. I can tell you that more than once I've forgotten to dial back from 100% to 50% and created a bit of a mess on my cheap PID when the boil starts going. The overall interface on the EZ Boil is just more friendly, which means you'll spend a bit less time fussing with buttons.


Regarding Johnny's position on the removable element, this is all a matter of preference.

I bought a cheap Chinese element and it has hot spots. That means I have to work a bit harder to get the gunk off after a boil, and that's a pain in the ass when you're reaching all the way down in a keg. Some people might need to store their kettle in such a way that they don't have cords hanging off the sides, another advantage to the removable approach. Some people may occasionally want to brew on propane instead of electric, if the element is easily removable you could cap the opening and brew at your friend's house on a turkey burner.

When I built mine I did non-removable to save cost, and in 2 years I haven't been able to justify re-fitting the kettle to removable. I even have 2x 5500w integrated TC elements sitting on my work bench ready for me when I have time and $50 I want to spend. If I went back in time I would have built the rig using those elements in the first place because now I have experienced the minor inconveniences of the fixed element.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Just a quick note, this kit from Auber is very compelling if you're starting from scratch:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=58_59&products_id=678

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

It has been a couple years since I built mine, but I haven't made any significant changes. I can help out if you've got questions around the parts list or how the components work together.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=550270


Regarding the EZ Boil vs PID there are some key differences that seem to be value adds for Auber:

1. Tuning - With a PID you have to find settings for P, I, and D that work with your system if you want the temperature to be stable. If your settings are wrong the temperature will go up and down in waves, or it won't ever get up to your desired setting. Auber uses an auto-tuning routine combined with more intuitive "Overshoot" and "Attenuation" settings. If you start it up and your temp overshoots by 3F, then set overshoot to 3 and you're good to go next time. Increase the attenuation setting to smooth out any waves.

2. Heat Control - Both devices control heat by turning the element on and off. The EZ Boil cycles it on and off very fast (60/sec) vs a budget PID (1-5/sec). In theory the slow cycles mean that the element goes Hot-Cold-Hot-Cold to achieve an average warm, vs very fast cycles where the element never gets all the way hot or all the way cold. You should see more precise boil control with the EZ Boil.

3. Ease of Use - This is connected with #1 in a way, but the EZ-Boil's dial control is very intuitive. Also the EZ Boil will automatically apply full power while it heats up to boil and then cut the power back when it's close. I can tell you that more than once I've forgotten to dial back from 100% to 50% and created a bit of a mess on my cheap PID when the boil starts going. The overall interface on the EZ Boil is just more friendly, which means you'll spend a bit less time fussing with buttons.


Regarding Johnny's position on the removable element, this is all a matter of preference.

I bought a cheap Chinese element and it has hot spots. That means I have to work a bit harder to get the gunk off after a boil, and that's a pain in the ass when you're reaching all the way down in a keg. Some people might need to store their kettle in such a way that they don't have cords hanging off the sides, another advantage to the removable approach. Some people may occasionally want to brew on propane instead of electric, if the element is easily removable you could cap the opening and brew at your friend's house on a turkey burner.

When I built mine I did non-removable to save cost, and in 2 years I haven't been able to justify re-fitting the kettle to removable. I even have 2x 5500w integrated TC elements sitting on my work bench ready for me when I have time and $50 I want to spend. If I went back in time I would have built the rig using those elements in the first place because now I have experienced the minor inconveniences of the fixed element.

Unfortunately auto doesn't always work that easy. I've dialed mine back to compensate and on future brews its off again. I think it might have something to do with the amount of grain. Others have experienced the same. I remember someone mentioning once to save your spent grains and after your brew day fill the pot to whatever you normally would and add the spent grains...THEN do the autotune...they say its more accurate that way...Personally I gave up on it. The beauty of electric brewing is you can brew in your house so cold weather doesn't effect the wort cooling down. I brew 10 gallon batches and just kill the power and cover the uninsulated pot when I dump the grain. In an our I loose maybe 5 deg. They say most conversion is done in 5 to 15 minutes anyway when temps are still stable...its amazingly simple and worry free.

As far as the element you could try dry firing it. My element was getting pretty nasty and I thought the metal was flaking off it got so crusty. So I dry fired it thinking I had nothing to loose.
I turned on the controller and waiting till it got cherry red,maybe 5 to ten seconds. It smoked like a bastard but instantly looked literally brand spankin new. That was a year ago and many brews later it still looks good and works fine

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Thank you all, this is great info! So, I just scored a 240v 3500w induction cooktop on eBay for $100! I have an induction ready 10gal kettle, looks like I'm shopping for a 20gal. I've heard great things about Spike...any other recommendations? And what features do y'all find most useful in a BIAB kettle? Is there any need for an external controller with the induction cooktop?

 

[BeardedBrews]

3500w will be working hard to boil much more than 6 gallons, if you can live with a standard 5.5g batch size I'd say stick with the pot you've got.

The best advice I think I can give is that since you have the electric cooktop coming, and already have a 10g pot, just buy a Wilser or BrewBag and try a 5 gallon batch. Everyone has their own system and preferences, it is better to try with what you've got and make sure you know what changes you want (if any).

You don't need a controller for any electric system, just an on and off switch and a thermometer

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I've got a WilserBag for it. But my understanding is that folks have no problem brewing 10gal batches on a 3500w 240v cooktop...

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I've got a WilserBag for it. But my understanding is that folks have no problem brewing 10gal batches on a 3500w 240v cooktop...

Keep in mind a 10 gallon batch starts with at least 14 gallons of water.Usually a little more or you don't get 10 gallons of finished product. That's a lot of water to heat. With a 5500 system it takes around 1/2 hour maybe more to get from tap temp to 155. Then from 155 to a boil takes another 1/2 hour give or take. With 3500w I would think it would take a LONG time to get to temp. Eventually it would happen but could make for a long brew day.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Fair enough. I tend to do closer to 7 gallon batches and ferment in a Speidel. And I have a bucket heater to speed things along, just have to make sure it's on a different circuit.

 

[geoffm33]

Thank you all, this is great info! So, I just scored a 240v 3500w induction cooktop on eBay for $100! I have an induction ready 10gal kettle, looks like I'm shopping for a 20gal. I've heard great things about Spike...any other recommendations? And what features do y'all find most useful in a BIAB kettle? Is there any need for an external controller with the induction cooktop?

I have a 11gal Bayou Classic that I drilled a hole for a weldless ball valve and a sight glass.

I am thinking about getting a Spike kettle but trying the figure out if it will be more efficient than my current setup.

With a single layer of reflectix on my Bayou Classic and an Avantco IC3500 induction cooktop:

8 gallons

58* at 0 minutes
94* at 16 minutes
160* at 46 minutes
212* at 72 minutes

Thanks!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I have a 11gal Bayou Classic that I drilled a hole for a weldless ball valve and a sight glass.

I am thinking about getting a Spike kettle but trying the figure out if it will be more efficient than my current setup.

With a single layer of reflectix on my Bayou Classic and an Avantco IC3500 induction cooktop:

8 gallons

58* at 0 minutes
94* at 16 minutes
160* at 46 minutes
212* at 72 minutes

Thanks!

Good info on the heating times. I hope I can speed that up w/ the clad bottom on my 10gal, already have a 3 layer reflectix jacket, and the 1000w bucket heater 🤘

 

[cyclonebeer]

Thank you all, this is great info! So, I just scored a 240v 3500w induction cooktop on eBay for $100! I have an induction ready 10gal kettle, looks like I'm shopping for a 20gal. I've heard great things about Spike...any other recommendations? And what features do y'all find most useful in a BIAB kettle? Is there any need for an external controller with the induction cooktop?

Check out Concord Kettles.

My 2 cents on kettles:

If you heat with propane, the flame heats the bottom of the kettle and the bottom of the kettle heats the liquid. Propane brewers could or should consider kettle bottom construction. Not so for electric brewers. The element heats the liquid directly. The kettle is just a vessel that better not leak. Spike makes a nice kettle. I believe that the diameter is a bit smaller and the height is a bit taller than the Concord, which means less dead volume under the element, basket, false bottom, whatever. The Concord is made in China which might bother some. It is considerably less expensive than the Spike. Don't know much about the Bayou, but I'm sure they're leak free until you start punching holes in them. About the only thing you need to consider is your budget and kettle dimensions. Run away from anything that has a tri-clad blah blah blah bottom.

 

[Nmnbrewer]

To be fair, the spike kettle is also Chinese made. It is made to a very high spec however. The welding is done in Milwaukee.

 

[cyclonebeer]

To be fair, the spike kettle is also Chinese made. It is made to a very high spec however. The welding is done in Milwaukee.

I was not aware of that. Thanks. No idea what the metallurgical makeup of the Concord is. I own one. Don't want to know. As an exercise, it would be interesting to price out a simple electric single vessel recirculating rig using all "made in the USA" components vs "made in China" parts.

 

[cyclonebeer]

Sorry.
That's pretty much hijacking the thread. Didn't mean to do that, but it would still be fun.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Not hijacking, I wanted a discussion of kettles and features!

 

[brewn4fun]

What about these options from ebrew supply.
30a PID BIAB Control Panel, 1 element $575 or
Complete 30a BIAB Kit w/SS enclosure $385
Not the ezboil but they may offer it if you called.

 

[goatgonads]

I did the DIY kit from EBrewsupply. Very happy with it. $350 for the box, have a friend wire it up. 220v though

Throw in a couple tilt hydrometers and a brewpi down the road for fun.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Yeah, that'll have to wait until we buy or get really lucky renting! I have a Raspberry pi that a friend built into a remote temp monitor and have been intrigued by the BrewPi but not ready to jump down that rabbit hole quite yet!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Still interested in what kettles folks prefer and why. Keep in mind I'll be starting with induction and possibly moving to elements and controller. I think I'll continue w/ BIAB, but it's possible I'll move to something of a hybrid 2 vessel. I also considered a 120v element to supplement the power of the 240v induction cooktop-the bucket heater works but I'd like a little more fixed, less likely to slip into the water option!

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

You going to get a lot of bias answers so heres mine

Concord pot found on EBAY.....because they're cheap, heavy duty and will last forever...Its a pot...what else could you ask for. MANY here use them

They have options now for a valve and thermometer...I just got a plain pot and use an auto siphon and hand held thermometer

 

[BeardedBrews]

Still interested in what kettles folks prefer and why.

I prefer a taller skinny pot to gain more flexibility in batch size. 5 gallons in a 20 gallon concord pot is very shallow which makes the boil-off rate high, and makes it difficult to position the element and fittings.

To the best of my knowledge, the pot blanks used by Stout and BrewersHardware for their 20g size are the narrowest (~15.75") 20 gallon option and probably the only version that would be useful all the way down to a 5g BIAB and up to a 15g.