Help me with my water

[bigskygreg]

Here is my report from Ward Labs on my well water:

View attachment Water Report 2013.pdf

I have started looking into water chemistry. Honestly, I find it very confusing. I like to brew a variety of beers and am looking for an easy solution to ensure that my water is not getting in the way of my beers.

Any suggestions/ideas? What would you do?

Thanks and Cheers!

 

[ajdelange]

I would read the Primer:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

 

[mabrungard]

The high alkalinity is the primary constituent to be concerned with in that water. Acidification to neutralize the alkalinity will be an important skill to master. The rest of the ions are generally OK. Bru'n Water has good tools for figuring out your acid dosing.

 

[ajdelange]

Assuming that you did read the Primer you have now been exposed to two methods for dealing with alkalinity: dilution with RO water and neutralization with acid. There is a third: precipitation of it (along with calcium). Just heating the water will cause that to take place but doesn't get it all and the question always remains as to just how much you did get. You can also use this method without heat by employing slaked lime.

Of the three methods diluting alkalinity away is the simplest provided that you have a readily available supply of RO water. Given that you would need to dilute by 9:1 to get the alkalinity down to an acceptable level you might as well go all the way with RO as that gives you total control over the mineral content of your brewing water's ion profile. You need to add salts back and can either use a calculator/spreadsheet to determine how much or just follow the very basic guidelines in the Primer and determine the optimum additions by taste test (which you have to do anyway).

If you chose to do acid addition (which is arguably as simple as dilution) then you need to obtain some 1 N acid (Palmer's new book has instructions on how to make 1 N acid from the strengths you can buy), get some pH test strips and add acid to the brewing water until the pH is around 5.4. This will take approximately alkalinity/15 mL per gallon treated.

The main distinction between the dilution and acid approaches is that with dilution you truly remove the bicarbonate ions (dilution isn't actually removing them - it is replacing the tap water with water from which they have been removed) whereas with acid treatment you are replacing them with the anion of the acid. Each bicarbonate is, thus, swapped out for and equivalent amount of sulfate, chloride, lactate of monobasic phosphate ion. There are implications here with respect to the flavor effects of those ions and you can, on the one hand, improve your beer if you know which ions to manipulate and how, or degrade it if you don't. Phosphoric acid is pretty flavor neutral and many breweries use it for this purpose for that reason.

Whether you dispose of the water's alkalinity with acid or dilution you still have to keep in mind that the grist will, in most cases with some dark beers being the exception, have alkalinities of their own which require more acid to overcome. With some dark beers you need the alkalinity of the water to neutralize the acidities of dark malts so that you don't want to neutralize it all. At this point it starts to become complicated. The Primer attempts to cover these cases but you really need a more advanced look with a spreadsheet or calculator to cover them.

Note to the technically minded: adding (alkalinity/15) mL 1N acid per gal does not convert all the bicarbonate to carbonic - just most of it. What it does do is set the proton deficit of the water to 0 so that water treated this way is almost identical to RO water as far as its proton deficit is concerned.

 

[bigskygreg]

Thanks for all the help. I've been reading a lot on the subject and it's starting to come together a little better. I am still honing my other skills, so right now I just want to make sure my water is "in the neighborhood"

Cheers!
Greg

 

[millsbrew]

I have a similar water profile from a whole house water softener (attached). I've read How to Brew and know softened water is basically worthless because of all the salt.

Is it best to just get an RODI system to clear out that Sodium and Chloride? Would RODI water help bring down my total Alkalinity too? Are there any concerns/benefits with using RODI water? I don't mind getting the de ionized media and container, but if it's just an extra step and filter to replace, I might as well save the loot. I realize I will still need to build out my salts based on each recipe, just specifically wondering about RODI vs. RO.

Thanks in advance.

View attachment water report2.pdf

 

[ajdelange]

Is it best to just get an RODI system to clear out that Sodium and Chloride? Would RODI water help bring down my total Alkalinity too?

RODI would reduce alkalinity (caused by bicarbonate ion) as well as reducing everything else (sodium, chloride sulfate...).

Are there any concerns/benefits with using RODI water? I don't mind getting the de ionized media and container, but if it's just an extra step and filter to replace, I might as well save the loot. I realize I will still need to build out my salts based on each recipe, just specifically wondering about RODI vs. RO.

The main benefit is that you are virtually freed of worry about your source water supply, variations in it high alkalinity etc. The down side is that you have to pay for the system and maintain it. Once past the original outlay maintenance is not that burdensome. Small volume RO systems are very inneficient using more than 5 gallons of water to produce one gallon permeate. Larger systems are much more efficient. The RO system does need to be fed with softened water in order to prolong membrane service life.

One disadvantage with RO that I often mention is that while RO throws out your water management problems it also throws out the need to learn how to mange those problems. If all you care about is getting water for brewing that won't be a concern.

A good RO system will remove 98% of all the ions in the water. In brewing there is no need to go after the remaining 2%. This means you do not need the DI portion of an RODI system.

 

[mchrispen]

--edit -- AJ beat me to it - and is more succinct!

Skip the DI stage and just go with RO... you need some ions in the water after all, no point in paying extra to strip absolutely everything out - and then add some back in. Since you have a softener, you can pass that feed into the RO media - will help preserve the filters long term. The primer is the perfect guide for this... or you can use Bru'n water for a more advanced approach.

Is it best to just get an RODI system to clear out that Sodium and Chloride?

RO is how I decided to manage my terrible water profile - because of very high sodium and bicarbonates. It works well - and I have been very happy with the results in my beer. You can also purchase RO water at the grocery - and that is probably a good idea to brew with - before you spend the money on the filter. It adds some complexity to brewing preparation... however, IMO, is worth the improved results. It may take a few brews to dial in your additions, and get past an nerves about adding stuff to the beer.

Would RODI water help bring down my total Alkalinity too?

Yes, and you are starting from a blank slate. Expect RO water pH to be between 6 and 7, varied by the efficiency of the media. Mine runs about 6.4 from the filters, with minimal alkalinity. This will allow you to brew fairly pale beers, but may require some alkaline additions (baking soda or better yet, pickling lime) for darker beers. I would suggest a good calibrated pH meter to help manage this. You can follow the advice in the Primer as a starting point or get a lot more involved (managing pH and managing flavor). Bru'n Water spreadsheet can help you to make good choices on additions and process. Without salts in the brewing liquor the beer is likely to be terribly boring.

Are there any concerns/benefits with using RODI water?

I don't suggest drinking it straight, and there are some health concerns if you drank a lot of it over an extended period of time, I prefer water with a little hardness for drinking. Coffee and tea made from RO is pretty lifeless. It is the perfect blank slate for brewing however, with some salts added. Also consider, the RO is fairly corrosive, so make sure to plum with PEX and not copper or brass past the filter. Small filters work well, but require some time to collect enough liquor to brew with... I have (4) 5 gallon spring water jugs and store my RO in those with foil lids - preparing a day or two in advance.

So to sum up:
A) The simplest approach is to brew with the Primer recommendations and adjust your additions from there with the next batch. I would start here before any big spends and use store bought RO for a couple of brew days.
B) A more complex (and perhaps satisfying) approach is to invest in a good pH meter, RO filters, and learn to manipulate both flavor contributions and mash/boil pH based on your recipe with mineral additions. Reading the new "Water" book and using a spreadsheet like Bru'n can be very instructive.

 

[millsbrew]

Thanks guys. Looks like I can save money on the DI feature. I'm going to start researching various systems and read the "Primer recommendations" sticky. Appreciate the help.