Help me want to keep brewing

[bannerj]

apologies in advance for length. patient and courageous read on. I know newbies tend to freak out. I'm only kind of a newb. When I was single and living in another state I brewed at least a dozen different beers and only screwed one up. Since I've been living in Michigan, I've tried about five times and haven't had one turn out well. It's now been two years since I brewed last. I love beer and want to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Since failing at my first two batches in Michigan I have:

*replaced my primary from plastic to glass. I'm now glass/glass
*replaced my airlock
*improved my cleaning and santization method
*kept the fermentor in a more stable temperature in my cold drafty house
*began using a wort chiller to limit wort exposure to oxidation or other contaminants.

The last few brews tasted really good and I was hopeful at the time of bottling. I'm suspicious that something is going wrong in the bottling, priming and storing phase.

I have a brewer's best rye pale ale with some changes in hops to make it more citrus (I love love Founder's Red's Rye). When I moved it to the secondary and pitched dry hops it tasted awesome.

What might be typical rookie mistakes at this stage from bottling on that might be my issue?

After 2-3 weeks in the bottle the beer ends up tasting acrid in a bad, almost chemical-like way. It almost tastes stale. I'd assume it was something with my bench capper, but there is a head on the beer when I pour it. I store it in a 65+degree room in a dark basement closet. It's a similar taste from bottle to bottle. I end up just cooking with it or pitching it.

This time around I:
*boiled all my water (I had used bottled water in one previous batch with no better success)
*adjusted the ph of the water. I have an old house and I'm wondering if something in the pipes is imparting some nasty.
*I plan to give my bottles a full day's soak in cleanser. then once dry completely, I'm going to try the oven, 2 hour full sterilization routine to completely kill anything in there. I store the bottles/equipment in a semi finished yet somewhat musty basement.
*Then I'm going to invest in star san and a vinator for a final sterilization.

Any other tips/suggestions/questions would be helpful!

The only other final, tiny contributing factor is that I noticed this time a few, slight, faints stains left in my carbouy's that I couldn't completely remove.......hmmmmmmm

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I would definitely consider star San or some other contact sanitizer. Also if the stains on the carboy were in the plastic they could very well be harboring bacteria if they're on the glass I would definately find a brush long enough to get them clean before putting any more beer in them.

 

[Yooper]

I'm wondering if it's your new tap water in your new home.

"Stale" seems like oxidation to me, but the rest sounds like some alkaline tap water.

I'd try one batch with 100% purchased RO water from a store (Walmart has those water machines, or a local grocery store) and see if it's better. If it is, you know it's your water. If it's not, you know it's your process.

 

[bannerj]

I would definitely consider star San or some other contact sanitizer. Also if the stains on the carboy were in the plastic they could very well be harboring bacteria if they're on the glass I would definately find a brush long enough to get them clean before putting any more beer in them.

I isn't star San, but I have some no-rinse contact sanitizer already.

So...even a very slight almost hard to see stain that has been in contact with a cleanser in an overnight soak and then followed by a sanitizer...that could still harbor some nasty bacteria?

I'm no bio-chemist...but I'm wondering how long it would take a bacteria to make my flavor go bad...meaning why did it taste good still in the carbouy but bad after 2-3 weeks in a bottle? Does it take that long for it to grow and destroy my beer?

I have a bottle brush but not a brush long enough to scrub a 6gal carbouy. I'll be buying one soon.

 

[xmacro]

Maybe try cutting out the secondary, just using a primary; less chance of an infection

 

[bannerj]

I'm wondering if it's your new tap water in your new home.

"Stale" seems like oxidation to me, but the rest sounds like some alkaline tap water.

I'd try one batch with 100% purchased RO water from a store (Walmart has those water machines, or a local grocery store) and see if it's better. If it is, you know it's your water. If it's not, you know it's your process.

It's an old 1930 house with original pipes.

As I said, I did try store bought water once.

 

[iambeer]

Agree with the above. Star San for bottles.

Is the room you brew in or bottle in dusty or especially damp?

Do you think the issues are temperature related (summer time heat especially). I have had a couple of batches effed up by 10 degrees F.

 

[Yooper]

It's an old 1930 house with original pipes.

As I said, I did try store bought water once.

but "store bought water" could be anything. Are you sure you used 100% RO water, or distilled water, and not a jug of "spring water"?

 

[bannerj]

Maybe try cutting out the secondary, just using a primary; less chance of an infection

Really? I used a secondary for all those first 12 batches I did. Most everyone suggests the secondary is the way to go.

Maybe as a tester to eliminate a variable perhaps.

 

[bannerj]

but "store bought water" could be anything. Are you sure you used 100% RO water, or distilled water, and not a jug of "spring water"?

Okay...you got me now as a rookie.... What is RO?

 

[Yooper]

Really? I used a secondary for all those first 12 batches I did. Most everyone suggests the secondary is the way to go.

Maybe as a tester to eliminate a variable perhaps.

I haven't used a secondary in years, but when I did it wasn't causing any problems. I doubt that is it, unless you have some sort of oxygen-loving bacteria or wild yeast contamination that can take hold in the headspace of a clearing vessel.

 

[bannerj]

Agree with the above. Star San for bottles.

Is the room you brew in or bottle in dusty or especially damp?

Do you think the issues are temperature related (summer time heat especially). I have had a couple of batches effed up by 10 degrees F.

Brewing in the kitchen...not dusty.

But the basement is both dusty and sometimes damp. But once I get everything upstairs, it's all cleaned and sanitized of course. But then after bottles are sealed, they go back downstairs.

 

[iambeer]

Maybe it just is your bottles after all.
Glass is very non-porous. If you soak your bottles in oxyclean over-night, that should so all the scrubbing for you (and oxy-clean does sanitize despite some misinformation). Don't forget to rinse well after any cleaner chemical. Then, maybe soak them in star san before bottling for 15 minutes, and bottle without rinsing.

Might as well do the same to all tubes and bottling equipment (often).

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Okay...you got me now as a rookie.... What is RO?

Reverse Osmosis

 

[Paramecium]

Maybe it just is your bottles after all.
Glass is very non-porous. If you soak your bottles in oxyclean over-night, that should so all the scrubbing for you (and oxy-clean does sanitize despite some misinformation). Don't forget to rinse well after any cleaner chemical. Then, maybe soak them in star san before bottling for 15 minutes, and bottle without rinsing.

Might as well do the same to all tubes and bottling equipment (often).

How exactly could you use oxyclean as a sanitizer? Assuming it actually sanitizes it still needs to be rinsed.

 

[mtk6006]

I was thonking water also. You said store bought tried right? Well that water comes from same place as your tap. Its just packaged nicely. Do some taste test with water just to see if different. Back in 1930 they probably Used galvanized pipe right? Might have a leak and picking up trash along the way. People that visit here say our water is the best they tasted! I have tasted their water and it taste pond water! So i will second the water. Just start testing waters to see if different. Thats what i would do. Sounds like you tried everything but try to hatch it like a egg.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

R/O is reverse osmosis water. Is your bottling bucket scratched? Using old tubing to do racking? Are you boiling your priming sugar? Are you being careful not to aerate when you rack?

 

[Chuginator]

My advice (I was basically in the same camp at one point): don't mess around with sanitizers. Go with Star San for everything - carboys, bottles, caps, bottling bucket, tubing, etc. It corrected my brew 100% (bleach and One Step didn't work for me).

I know from personal experience that it can be terribly frustrating when it doesn't turn out. But stick with it - you'll nail it, and this hobby is way too enjoyable to leave behind!

 

[billl]

"Stale" is typically oxygenation. Can you describe the process you use to transfer from primary to secondary, secondary to bottling bucket, and bottling bucket to bottle?

 

[ludomonster]

I'm wondering if it's your new tap water in your new home.

"Stale" seems like oxidation to me, but the rest sounds like some alkaline tap water.

I'd try one batch with 100% purchased RO water from a store (Walmart has those water machines, or a local grocery store) and see if it's better. If it is, you know it's your water. If it's not, you know it's your process.

Water is also my first guess. If you can get a water quality report (one that discusses alkalinity, chlorine, sulfates, sodium, calcium, and magnesium, it would help. This is going to be different than a typical water quality report which tends to discuss things like coliform and e. coli.

The other thing that may have changed is your supply of extract (if you use it). Old liquid extract can make stale beer with other odd flavors. A good indicator of old liquid extract is how dark it is, or if you're beer is much darker than you want (and you aren't scorching it).

 

[jbaysurfer]

The only other final, tiny contributing factor is that I noticed this time a few, slight, faints stains left in my carbouy's that I couldn't completely remove.......hmmmmmmm

Slight, faint, or Tiny, is a dangerous attitude to take in the sanitation department.

I'm always leary of the "convince me not to quit" threads. That's got to come from you. It's ambition. Nobody can give you ambition via the internet.

Using a chiller has nothing to do with limiting oxidation. You WANT oxygen in your wort at this stage (before you pitch)

Using a dry yeast? Hydrating it? In what? How? What KIND of sanitizer are you using? How are you using it? This stuff all matters.

My best advice: Join a brew club and have someone who knows what they're doing come hang out while you brew one day. Also let them taste the bad ones so they can help you pin down your issue.

 

[prpromin]

Could be your water (like others have said). Might even be picking up something from the old pipes in the house. If it were me, I'd drop by New Holland and ask if they treat their water (and how). You might pick up some good insight just by asking the right person.

 

[Tyru007]

If your using oxy clean this stuff is hard to dissolve and cleans with oxygen. If you leaving a residual in the bottles, it will produce oxygen and create a stale taste.

If you a naturally cabonating, Make sure to boil water with the sugar to sanitize and drive out any dissolved O2. Be carefull not to splash when transfering from the secondary to the bottling bucket or when you are mixing in the priming sugar solution as this will introduce oxygen into the beer prior to bottling.

If your water tastes OK, and the beer tastes fine before bottling, then it is probably not your water.

I also do not use a secondary most of the time except when dry hopping, adding adjuncts or conditioning lagers. Most ales benefit from staying on the yeast for a diacetyl rest.

 

[takaboy]

Is RO water too pure for the beer ie no essential minerals?? maybe try a simple carbon filter post boiling.

 

[J187]

One thing it looks like is that you have not tried brewing in different bottles at all. Next batch I'd try using a new case of bottles, but replace and MARK some of them with your known bottles, bottles which bad beer HAS been poured from. If everything in the new bottles tastes good but not the old, you'd know.

 

[Yooper]

Is RO water too pure for the beer ie no essential minerals?? maybe try a simple carbon filter post boiling.

RO water is ideal for brewing, especially for extract brewing.

 

[J187]

but wouldn't reverse osmosis need minerals added back into it for brewing? Since the RO strips virtually all minerals from the water.

 

[scinerd3000]

The best thing you can do and the big mistake most people make is to change a bunch of things at once...If it works out, then you have no clue which thing you changed did it and if it doesn't help you are still in the same boat. From what you have said and assuming you are somewhat versed in brewing I would have to pin it down to a few different things...

1. Are you sanitizing the caps? Some people have absolutly no problems with this but in the one batch I have ever had with off flavors, it was when I forgot to soak the caps.
2. Sanitizer is a huge deal. Starsan is the main goto and works very well and is reliable. It is possible I missed it but what are you using currently? Also if you wouldn't mind, run through your steps from the point of taking the beer out of secondary until you end with the capped bottles. What type of caps are you using, bottling bucket, tubing (vinyl, braided,- how long have you had it, how long do you let it soak). Oven sanitizing the bottles works great but I find using sani is easier and leaves a more aseptic environment.

This does not sound like a water issue to me. Generally if you get off flavors from the water it tends to be chlorophenol or occasionally metalic. Since the house is 1930's I am guessing well water but regardless, unless you have a taste like you are sucking on pennies I would rule that one out. Many people have brewed with well water, creek amd river water, water from old ass musty pipes and have no issues with off flavors. Even as far as "boiling" the water for your priming sugar, I generally let it boil in the microwave with the dextrose in it until the soln. goes clear (usually about 30-45 seconds rolling boil at most) and have never had an issue.

The oxyclean residue as said above by Tyru is a very valid point. If there is some resiude it could deffinitly be adding to off flavors in the beer. The oxidised or carboard character generally comes further down the road. Because you are bottle conditioning your beers and not force carbonating, the yeast as it referments the priming sugar will scavange the residual oxygen in the beer for fermentation making it a non-issue.

 

[scinerd3000]

but wouldn't reverse osmosis need minerals added back into it for brewing? Since the RO strips virtually all minerals from the water.

You always have the ability to add back. If you are doing a dark stout you may want to consider adding some back in, but for any of the lighter beers it shouldn't matter. if you are doing all grain, some of the interactions which affect pH changes can matter but thats getting into a whole different ballpark.

 

[Yooper]

but wouldn't reverse osmosis need minerals added back into it for brewing? Since the RO strips virtually all minerals from the water.

No. It's fine for brewing for almost all beers, but most AG brewers will add a bit of calcium chloride. It's not necessary at all for extract brewers, as the profile of the mash is in the extract, and RO water works great.

 

[ajf]

*I plan to give my bottles a full day's soak in cleanser. then once dry completely, I'm going to try the oven.

Soaking in a cleanser like oxi-clean is good if the bottles are dirty, but after soaking, they need to be rinsed very thoroughly, and then sanitized immediately before bottling. If you just leave the cleaned bottles to dry, they will be coated with the remnants of the cleanser, which could definitely cause a chemical taste - because the cleanser is a chemical.

I always rinse my bottles out really well immediately after pouring the beer, and find in unnecessary to soak in oxi-clean, unless I am using donated bottles.

-a.

 

[J187]

Is it safe to rule out the capper just because the beer has a head? Why don't try putting a capped bottle under water and seeing if any bubbles show up? Make sure not to invert the bottle.

 

[RCCOLA]

Do you have any rust stains in your sinks, tubs, or toilets?

Iron can be a batch destroyer.

 

[McKrakken]

Not seeing much detail about your bottling process..

What I do, is use Starsan for EVERYTHING.. I starsan my bottling bucket, the hoses, racking cane hose, absolutely anything and everything that can come in contact with the beer.

I like to take a 5 gal bucket and fill it about 3/4 full of starsan water and keep hoses and whatever fits in it, in there at all times.. we also keep the imersion chiller in the starsan until it's needed.

Do you boil your chiller? Some like to do that.

When it's time to bottle, I use 2 buckets.. one bucket I fill with enough starsan water to be able to submerge several bottles. In bucket 2, I put about 1/2" of starsan at the bottom. I fill several bottles of starsan water and then dump the starsan. I then put the bottle upside down in bucket 1, so there is no chance of anything getting in the bottles.

I then put all the bottle caps in a strainer and rinse them in the bucket of starsan.

I carefully rack the beer into the bottling bucket and pour in the priming sugar solution that has been boiled and cooled. Stir gently and fetch the hose from the starsan bucket.

take a bottle from the bucket, get as much foam out as possible and fill it.. grab a bottle cap being CAREFUL to not touch the inside and cap the bottle.

I'll then usually dunk it back in the starsan bucket to rinse the overflow off of the bottle.. then off to storage!

What's YOUR bottling process?

 

[Kingfish]

Most everyone suggests the secondary is the way to go.

I do not believe this to be the case. The only folks currently recommending "secondary" are folks that do it because that is the way they have always done it, folks that have only read 20 year old books, folks that make money selling equipment, etc. Even Palmer and Jamil have revised their stance on recommending "secondaries"...God I hate that word.

 

[bannerj]

I do not believe this to be the case. The only folks currently recommending "secondary" are folks that do it because that is the way they have always done it, folks that have only read 20 year old books, folks that make money selling equipment, etc. Even Palmer and Jamil have revised their stance on recommending "secondaries"...God I hate that word.

Yeah, I stand corrected. I've got a friend in town who told me that he's been only using one and its plastic.....and here I am glass/glass screwing these batches up.

 

[bannerj]

Thanks everyone for all your input. If I've learned anything from this, its that there really really could be several explanations to the failures. I understand what someone said above, that changing too many things at once might not ever reveal exactly what is failing.....but I can't afford the time to just adjust each possible culprit with each batch. I'm going for all my weakest practices and changing them all just to get some confidence back.

My bottling process is pretty standard. Clean with Easy Clean. Sanitize with Idophor. Rinse everything. Transfer from fermenter into clean/sanitized bottling bucket. Siphon and fill bottles with racking cane. I can't remember if I boiled the caps last time or not. I'm pretty sure I did. I'm using the caps that come with brewer's best on some bottles bought at the local shop and some recycled.

I don't think it's the caps anymore since, yeah, there is a head on the beer.

I'm suspicious that the very faint stains left on the carboy...that I can't get at with my brush...might be a problem.
Overall I might be too impatient in cleaning my gear overall.
I'm concerned about the fluctuations in temperature in my drafty house. This fall the basement's temp has fluctuated within 10 degrees in the two weeks I've gone from primary to secondary.
I'm going to get some new tubing and do my best with the bottles.

The thing is, I'm so excited about this batch that I know I want to keep trying anyway. What is intimidating is the cost of the BB extract kits. I wouldn't feel so bad messing up batches if it was cheaper. So now I'm trying to decide with my wife if I'll spend the money to put together a mash tun and go to the next stage. I understand I can get ingredient costs down substantially after those initial costs. Plus I have a really good friend who wants to get in on this. It'll be time well spent with him.

Thanks for your help!

 

[J187]

Thanks everyone for all your input. If I've learned anything from this, its that there really really could be several explanations to the failures. I understand what someone said above, that changing too many things at once might not ever reveal exactly what is failing.....but I can't afford the time to just adjust each possible culprit with each batch. I'm going for all my weakest practices and changing them all just to get some confidence back.

My bottling process is pretty standard. Clean with Easy Clean. Sanitize with Idophor. Rinse everything. Transfer from fermenter into clean/sanitized bottling bucket. Siphon and fill bottles with racking cane. I can't remember if I boiled the caps last time or not. I'm pretty sure I did. I'm using the caps that come with brewer's best on some bottles bought at the local shop and some recycled.

I don't think it's the caps anymore since, yeah, there is a head on the beer.

I'm suspicious that the very faint stains left on the carboy...that I can't get at with my brush...might be a problem.
Overall I might be too impatient in cleaning my gear overall.
I'm concerned about the fluctuations in temperature in my drafty house. This fall the basement's temp has fluctuated within 10 degrees in the two weeks I've gone from primary to secondary.
I'm going to get some new tubing and do my best with the bottles.

The thing is, I'm so excited about this batch that I know I want to keep trying anyway. What is intimidating is the cost of the BB extract kits. I wouldn't feel so bad messing up batches if it was cheaper. So now I'm trying to decide with my wife if I'll spend the money to put together a mash tun and go to the next stage. I understand I can get ingredient costs down substantially after those initial costs. Plus I have a really good friend who wants to get in on this. It'll be time well spent with him.

Thanks for your help!

For one, I'd get your issues under control before going all-grain. More issues to isolate and so many of the same procedures and so much of the same equipment, that you'll still be at high risk. First your issues with extract before making the jump.

You say you are suspicious of the stains on the carboy - but you said you changed fermenters AFTER you were failing... so I'd look more at something you have not changed - like the bottles!

 

[bannerj]

Just to report: I've done three brews since I posted my initial concerns. All of them have been partial mash and all of them have turned out well.

I think the issue overall is patience. I was probably messing up a couple things. I'm mostly suspicious that its cleaning and sanitation...mostly that I wasn't rising the cleaner off well enough.

Now I'm soaking bottles for a day or so. Using the brush if needed. Doing a high heat water cycle with the dishwasher (no soap). Then before bottling I'm using a nice sprayer to starsan the bottles. I hang them back in the washer till I fill them.

And then I realized that I can just set all the bottles on the washer door and fill them on there. So, now I don't have to worry about those overfills that drip all over the floor.

Thanks for all your help!