Help me plan a hoppy sour

[saltymirv]

I want to make a hoppy sour. If you have had any of the hoppy sour beers from Almananc, that is what inspired this brew.

http://www.almanacbeer.com/ourbeer/hoppy-sour-citra/

I'm not looking to clone it, just trying my hand at making something in that style

The grains I have on hand are: 10lbs 2-row, 10lbs Bohemian Pilsner, 3lbs Rye Malt, 2lbs Vienna, 2lbs Flaked Oats, 1lb Munich II, ~.75lbs CaraMunich, ~.75lbs CaraAroma.

The hops I have on hand are: 1lb CTZ, 1lb Centennial, 1lb Pekko, 8oz Citra, 4oz Simcoe, plus some other noble/english varieties

The yeast strains I have are: US-05, Brett Amalgamation by TYB, and Lacto Brevis

My current plan looks like this, for 5.5 gallon:

OG: 1.052
FG: ~1.003
ABv: ~6.5%
IBU: ~6
SRM: 7.1

Grains:
7lbs 2-row
2lbs Rye Malt
1lb Vienna
8oz Flaked Oats
8oz CaraMunich

Hops:
.15oz CTZ @ 30 min (6.3 IBU)
*sour/ferment several months*
4oz Citra @ Dry Hop 3-4 days before packaging
1oz CTZ @ Dry Hop 3-4 days before packaging

Yeast:
Pitch the lacto after brewing, keep it ~80F overnight. The next day cool the beer down to ~66F then pitch the US-05 and/or the Brett Amalgamation. I'm looking for advice here. If I want to maximize the fruitiness from the brett, should I pitch it as a primary strain or secondary?

I'm also considering kettle souring to have more control over the acid level. Will pitching lacto first give enough acidity over time?

 

[tbred]

To answer your question about lacto and souring, I would be concerned about the hop addition prior to souring. Depending on the lacto strain, it may be impeded by the ibus, even the 6 you have mentioned. Personally I would kettle sour the beer and then boil it adding hops post sour. This would give you control of the end pH/acidity.

I have not worked with Brett Amalgamation. I would think that primary pitching would lead to more fruit character.

 

[Morrey]

Adding to tbred's response, I am much more inclined to suggest you build a sour base (kettle sour) with lacto, then add hops galore when you boil post-souring. You can pitch a brett-sacch blend if you choose, but anything you do while you are souring has the potential to impede the lacto.

I use L Plantarum when I sour which is happy at the 80F temp you mentioned. L Brevis may like temps higher than that so you may want to check.

 

[saltymirv]

To answer your question about lacto and souring, I would be concerned about the hop addition prior to souring. Depending on the lacto strain, it may be impeded by the ibus, even the 6 you have mentioned. Personally I would kettle sour the beer and then boil it adding hops post sour. This would give you control of the end pH/acidity.

I have not worked with Brett Amalgamation. I would think that primary pitching would lead to more fruit character.

I'm using L. Brevis for the souring, which is supposed to be a more IBU tolerant strain. http://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/wlp672-lactobacillus-brevis

They just recommend keeping the IBU under 10.

Thank you both for the advice, I'm definitely considering a kettle sour. The only thing is I would have to do two small batches since my big kettle is aluminum and not suited for kettle souring. Its not a big deal to do two seperate batches, but not ideal either

 

[Morrey]

I'm using L. Brevis for the souring, which is supposed to be a more IBU tolerant strain. http://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/wlp672-lactobacillus-brevis

They just recommend keeping the IBU under 10.

Thank you both for the advice, I'm definitely considering a kettle sour. The only thing is I would have to do two small batches since my big kettle is aluminum and not suited for kettle souring. Its not a big deal to do two seperate batches, but not ideal either

I "kettle" soured my last Gose in a 7.8G fermenter bucket. I know there are two schools of thoughts here, but I have boiled a sour in an aluminum kettle before with no problem. I just didn't want it sitting in the alum pot while souring.

 

[saltymirv]

I "kettle" soured my last Gose in a 7.8G fermenter bucket. I know there are two schools of thoughts here, but I have boiled a sour in an aluminum kettle before with no problem. I just didn't want it sitting in the alum pot while souring.

I guess I could do something similar. Mash on the 5 gallon system, transfer to a bucket to sour for 2-3 days, then do 2 seperate boils in the small stainless kettle. It would eliminate having two do 2 mashes at least

 

[saltymirv]

I just wanted to update this thread. The beer turned out AWESOME. It is super fruity and drinks like some kind of tropical fruit hop juice.

I stayed pretty close to the original recipe. It is fairly sour, but I would like it to be a little more sour. The final pH was 3.66. Here is my updated recipe and process:

Batch size: 4.5 gallon (so it will fit in my 5 gallon fermenter)
OG: 1.058
FG: 1.006
ABV: 6.8
IBU: 5 (from the boil, dry hopping likely added some later on)
SRM: 7.9

Mash:
5.5lb 2-row
2lbs Rye malt
1lb Vienna
.5lb C60
.5lb Oats

Boiled 40 minutes (don't remember why this number)

.1oz CTZ @ 40 (next time I would reduce the IBU even further for more sourness)

I chilled the beer to 100F, transferred to my fermenter and then pitched Lacto Brevis only (I made little 12oz starters for the Lacto and Brett the day before). I let that go at 100F for about 24 hours. Then I chilled the beer to 68F and co-pitched a pack of US-05 and and the Brett Amalgamation starter. I ramped that up to about 75F over the course of a week. The fermenter was then stored in my spare room for the coming months, which fluctuated between 65-85F at the extremes, daily changes were less. I let it sit for 4 months total, after which the gravity was stable. A pellicle did not form until 3 months in.

Two weeks before packaging I dry hopped with 2oz Citra, 2 oz Galaxy, and .8 oz Mosaic. I let that sit for a day, then put the fermenter in my ferm chamber and dropped the temp 10F every day until it reached 34F (4 days). It stayed at that temp until packaging 10 days later.

I would have liked to have kegged it, but my kegerator only gets clean beer so I bottled. It's been about 2 weeks since bottling and the beer tastes great! It is very fruity and has a little brett funk, but the Amalgamation blend gives mostly fruit. So its like a very complex tropical fruit blend. I will post a picture later.

Next time I make this, I would shoot for more sourness. So I would reduce the boil IBU amount and possible let the lacto go for another day or two before pitching the yeast. I would probably use a simpler grain bill. This beer is all about the hops and acidity. There's no need for the rye and all that craziness. I've considered maybe doing a kettle sour next time, but the Amalgamation really steps this beer up a notch from a simple lacto sour. It is worth experimenting with though.