Help me figure out if I have a leak in my kegging system...

[brewkinger]

New kegger here (thanks to the wife who decided to be nice with the Xmas bonus), which I mention only because this kegging thing is all new to me and I apologize if my issue (or lack of) is not warranted, but I just want to try and understand the process.

Full tank of CO2, new regulator and we are off and running.

Pressure checked everything and leak checked everything (and double checked), and then hooked everything up to the keg of IPA on Saturday morning. Set at 10psi and 34 degrees(per BobbyM thread) and figured on leaving it for 4-5 days and then checking it.

This morning, I noticed that the high pressure gauge was reading empty, and I have since read that this gauge is essentially useless (especially when temps are low). I did notice also the the temp of the keg dropped down to around 32 due to colder weather here in northern VT.

I double checked all connections to look for leaks and did not find any.

Here is what I am wondering.
If the CO2 tank was truly "empty", would the low pressure gauge still register the 10psi?
I can increase the pressure with the knob, watch the needle rise and still hear gas hissing into the keg, so this means that there is still gas in the tank correct?
As a preliminary test, I closed the shutoff and disconnected the gas line from the keg and left it all day. My thinking is that if the keg is the leak problem, then I should have no pressure when I get home.

If a leak in the system someplace else is the problem, can someone please walk me through how to isolate where it may be.
My initial testing was to take the full tank (no regulator) and submerge in a tub. Not a single bubble.
Sprayed a soap/water mixture on every joint on the regulator, keg (posts, PRV and main seal included) and even the ball lock end of the gas line (which I even dipped in water to check for leaks).

 

[TheCADJockey]

I kegged for the first time a few days ago, and had a few wonky things happen. After a few days at 30 psi, I turned it down to 8 psi for serving. I check it after an hour or so and all my gauges dropped to 0 similar to what you had happen. I detached everything and set it back up at 8 psi and it hasn't happened since. Interested in seeing what people have to say about this as well.

 

[IslandLizard]

Weight the tank.

 

[Rockn_M]

I wouldn't rely on the gauge that measures the tank pressure. This will fluctuate based on the temperature of the tank.

Make sure the open valve is all the way open. Don't just turn it a little bit. Purge the keg a few times. If you can hear gas enter the keg you know there is gas in the CO2 tank. Like IslandLizard said you can weigh the tank. There will be a weight stamped on the side of the Co2 tank. If you weigh just the tank and it's close to that weight, your just about of co2.

 

[brewkinger]

Weigh the tank.

How much should the tank weigh if it is empty?

edit: RocknM answered that for me (I will check that when I get home)

 

[BigFloppy]

make sure you didn't lose/damage your O ring from the gas post

 

[brewkinger]

make sure you didn't lose/damage your O ring from the gas post

The o-rings on both gas and liquid are good. Even reapplied some keg lube to them as insurance.

 

[Rockn_M]

I think BigFloppy was meaning the o-ring between the co2 tank and the regulator.

 

[brewkinger]

UPDATE: The stamp on the tank says 3.4kg (7.5#) and when I weighed it, total weight was 8#, so clearly my tank is empty.

I have to recheck everything starting tonight when I get home with the refilled tank and I want to work in an organized manner, starting from the tank and working my way out to the keg without missing anything.

First thing I am going to do is weigh it and figure out if it is full or not.

Then I am going to submerge the tank w/o regulator in water and check to see if I get any bubbles.

The regulator that I have has a built in rubber gasket on the connection to the tank(according to the TapRite information). There is a small black o-ring that appears to be in great shape, so the assumption is that is not the problem.
Connect the tank to the regulator and open the tank valve, keep the shutoff closed.
I assume that the regulator should never be submerged, so the ol' thick starsan/water combo on each joint of the regulator and check for bubbles. (Is there a better way to do this?)

Now connect the gas line to the keg, make sure the ball lock is firmly seated on the post.

A question that I have: Should there be a gasket/o-ring on the threaded connection below the shutoff that connects to the swivel nut on the gas line?
I am a little sketchy on how those swivel nuts connections work being that they are metal on metal and therefore RELY on tightening that sucker until it cannot be tightened anymore.

Assuming we are all good up to this point and the gas line is not the problem then I will pressurize the keg with 20# or so and then check the main seal and posts on the keg.

Am I missing anything?

 

[ANGELofDEBT]

The easiest way I have found where a leak is the following;

Connect the regulator to the tank, Open the tank and set the regulator low pressure side to 10-15 psi. Don't connect any gas lines to your kegs. Close the tank valve completly. Let it sit for an hour or 2. If the guage drops from the 10-15 psi you set it then the leak is in your gas line connections. If the gauge didn't drop then your leak is with your kegs.

 

[theck]

The easiest way I have found where a leak is the following;

Connect the regulator to the tank, Open the tank and set the regulator low pressure side to 10-15 psi. Don't connect any gas lines to your kegs. Close the tank valve completly. Let it sit for an hour or 2. If the guage drops from the 10-15 psi you set it then the leak is in your gas line connections. If the gauge didn't drop then your leak is with your kegs.

What I do, I've had pressure for a good ~24 hours too... if the pressure is gone then dunk the lines/connections in a bucket of water.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]
A question that I have: Should there be a gasket/o-ring on the threaded connection below the shutoff that connects to the swivel nut on the gas line?[...]

Yes, there should be a nylon flare gasket between the swivel nut and the shut-off valve...

Cheers!

 

[brewkinger]

Yes, there should be a nylon flare gasket between the swivel nut and the shut-off valve...

Cheers!

OK... getting closer to figuring out the problem. Should there be a nylon flare gasket at every swivel nut/barb connection?

With the kit that I bought, I have a swivel nut/barb connection at both ends of the gas line and barb connections at both ends of the liquid line.

I am going to upgrade to oetiker clamps ASAP as they just seem to be the recommended better option.

 

[theck]

You have this between the co2 tank and the regulator?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000DZFVDS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[day_trippr]

OK... getting closer to figuring out the problem. Should there be a nylon flare gasket at every swivel nut/barb connection?

With the kit that I bought, I have a swivel nut/barb connection at both ends of the gas line and barb connections at both ends of the liquid line.[...]

The quick disconnects have "captive" flare gaskets at their tips, so you do not insert a nylon gasket at those connections.

You have this between the co2 tank and the regulator?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000DZFVDS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

His regulator has an integrated O-ring at the tank coupler end...

Cheers!

 

[theck]

The quick disconnects have "captive" flare gaskets at their tips, so you do not insert a nylon gasket at those connections.



His regulator has an integrated O-ring at the tank coupler end...

Cheers!

Mine has the same, it leaked and I put in the gasket and no problems now.

 

[brewkinger]

Mine has the same, it leaked and I put in the gasket and no problems now.

Yes, there should be a nylon flare gasket between the swivel nut and the shut-off valve.

Can both of these gaskets be found at my local hardware store?

 

[theck]

Can both of these gaskets be found at my local hardware store?

Not sure, but the co2 tank gasket my homebrew shop has em and the local welding supply. Might try Lowes? I don't think I've seen them at HD.

 

[Rockn_M]

Mine has the same, it leaked and I put in the gasket and no problems now.

I had the same issue. I put a fish eye washer between the gas ball locks and the barb that connects to the gas line and the leak stopped.

 

[brewkinger]

Disassembled and reassembled all gas components last night, making sure to tighten them well.

Attached full tank to regulator, purged keg and then resealed with 30psi and disconnected gas line. Generously applied starsan/water to every joint of the keg. (No apparent bubbles)

Shutoff valve closed and set low pressure to 10psi and left it for 3 hours and it was still reading 10psi, so I checked off the regulator as the problem.

Opened the shutoff to the gas line and left overnight and it still was at 10psi this morning. Painted every joint on the regulator and gas line with bubble juice and dipped the QD end into a glass of water and saw nothing.

One final thought... When I was working on the keg, the PRV may or may not have been slightly unscrewed. It may have been that way before or the process of grabbing the ring on the PRV may have loosened it slightly.
Either way, I tightened it well and proceeded on.

When I initially discovered the empty tank and problem, I do seem to remember a distinct odor of beer in the air. If the PRV was the problem, that odor should have been my first clue where the problem was. RIGHT????

Oh well.... I have my fingers crossed that the pressure is still OK when I get home today and my problem is solved.

 

[brewkinger]

I also wanted to add that even if the PRV was the original problem, I soaped the living bejeezus out of it and got no bubbles when I checked it 2 days ago. Another bit of proof that the soap trick doesn't always give a clear sign of a problem. A friend of mine that also brews mentioned a more reliable product that he said he got from NB (he thinks) a couple of years ago. I could not find it on their website. Anyone know what he is talking about?

 

[seefish]

Some kegs don't hold pressure very well under 10 psi. Had it happen when I started that my refurbed keg with new seal held pressure fine above 10 but will develop a slow leak below that. You may want to make sure you are checking your system for leaks at serving pressure. I think some people turn off gas except when serving.

 

[ChemEng]

I use at least 30 lbs of pressure to "seat" the keg gaskets before carbonating a keg.

Also, when you open the tank valve, make sure you open it all the way. There is a gasket that seats when the valve is fully opened.

 

[TheCADJockey]

I just served my first kegged beer at the new years party. After pouring a couple beers over about an hour, it started to leak from the serving side (poppet?). I literally just bought this keg system, is this a common occurrence? It was rather embarrassing for me. I ended up having to serve a beer and immediately remove the hose so it wouldn't leak. I lost a lot of beer from this batch due to this since it wasn't an immediate thing.

 

[brewkinger]

I just served my first kegged beer at the new years party. After pouring a couple beers over about an hour, it started to leak from the serving side (poppet?). I literally just bought this keg system, is this a common occurrence? It was rather embarrassing for me. I ended up having to serve a beer and immediately remove the hose so it wouldn't leak. I lost a lot of beer from this batch due to this since it wasn't an immediate thing.

Was it leaking from around the base of the post, or from the poppet hole at the top o the post?

I suppose you could depressurize the keg and remove the post and disassemble and clean it.
I have a friend that got some hop gunk wedged under the spring/poppet and it caused an issue.

Pretty simple and cheap to replace the poppet/spring assembly.

It could also be from the oring under the dip tube assembly or even not having the ball or pin lock assembly completely locked on the post.

 

[andrewmaixner]

I just served my first kegged beer at the new years party. After pouring a couple beers over about an hour, it started to leak from the serving side (poppet?). I literally just bought this keg system, is this a common occurrence? It was rather embarrassing for me. I ended up having to serve a beer and immediately remove the hose so it wouldn't leak. I lost a lot of beer from this batch due to this since it wasn't an immediate thing.

If it is leaking while the disconnect (the plastic thing that goes between the hose and the keg) is on, then it's probably a problem with that piece, which is cheap. Did you use keg lube on the rubber rings? was it pushed all the way down and locked in place?

The poppet would only be the source of the leak if it is leaking when the disconnect and serving hose are NOT connected. The disconnect pushes down the poppet so that the poppet is OPEN while the disconnect is attached.

 

[IslandLizard]

Check this:
If the disconnect does not have the raised letters CMB on them, contact the seller and get them exchanged. You may then mention the loss of beer, friends, spousal companionship, etc., because of receiving that generic disconnect that's out of spec...

Could be a faulty/worn/wrong size O-ring on the (liquid) post.

 

[brewkinger]

OK, I think that I finally figured it out.

After figuring out where the "flaw" in my diagnostic process was (don't ask, just trust that it was a DOH!!! moment)

I retested and isolated the leak to the gas line. (No pressure loss from tank and regulator after 12 hours) and then 15psi loss in 6 hours with the gas hose connected.

It was the swivel nut / barb connection at the regulator end. I sprayed the connections with soap/water mixture and then sat and pain-stakingly watched that joint (I already had tested the QD end in a glass of water and knew that it was OK)

I finally noticed slow and rhythmic bubbles coming from that joint.

A wrap of teflon tape (there seemed to be contradictory opinions on this) and the connection survived another 24 hours under pressure and lost nothing.
So I am going with it as is.

There is still a shipment of new premium gas line, nylon 1/4" tailpiece/flare washer and oetiker clamps on the way, so I will more than likely upgrade when it arrives. I am just glad that I figured it out.
:rockin:

 

[theck]

Damn just lost all my gas in my extra 5# tank, forgot to turn it off a while back and there's a small leak. I mostly use it to seal my corneys before putting them in the keezer. Blah.

 

[brewkinger]

UPDATE:

New gas line with new clamps and I am enjoying a delicious carbonated IPA on a nightly basis.
No pressure loss and I could not be happier.... Well another couple of kegs for some variety would be great, but we will address that in the near future. Lol

 

[IslandLizard]

UPDATE:

New gas line with new clamps and I am enjoying a delicious carbonated IPA on a nightly basis.
No pressure loss and I could not be happier.... Well another couple of kegs for some variety would be great, but we will address that in the near future. Lol

Yeah, get brewing, what are you waiting for?

 

[brewkinger]

Yeah, get brewing, what are you waiting for?

I am waiting for some empty kegs.... I should have been more clear in that post; lol!!

I'll be brewing a double batch this weekend. AG SNPA clone and another round of the extract IPA that is currently kegged.
Makes for a quicker double batch day; the extract finishes right about the time that the AG batch comes to boil.

 

[theck]

I am waiting for some empty kegs.... I should have been more clear in that post; lol!!

I'll be brewing a double batch this weekend. AG SNPA clone and another round of the extract IPA that is currently kegged.
Makes for a quicker double batch day; the extract finishes right about the time that the AG batch comes to boil.

Best time too brew is when your kegs are full... They sit longer in the fermenter.

 

[brewkinger]

OK, I guess that I need to be uber-specific....

I currently only have ONE keg, which is currently being used, so I am working on purchasing a couple of empties.

That being said, I feel the love in these last couple of posts, so if anyone wants to send me empty cornies, please do not hesitate....

I will of course still brew this weekend and then when the new kegs arrive (), I will be more than happy to fill them, carbonate and drink the beverages.

On a serious note, Thanks again for all the help with the gas leak and the solution. It might not have been so easily and effectively diagnosed if it was not for HBT.

BK

 

[andrewmaixner]

Congratulations on figuring out your problem!
I recently also had to troubleshoot mine one piece at a time. Ended up that one of my [manifold] <- NPT -> [backflow preventer/shutoffvalve/MFL] connections was leaking in a not normally visible spot. Sent it in for rebuild/replacement, fortunately it was my small secondary high-pressure manifold and the CO2 tank was already getting low.