Help Me Build A Rosbust Porter

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BeerBrewerTrain

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Might have to much going on help me smoothen this out or replace values, Im open to suggestions help improve This recipes.

Malt Bill
12lb Pale Malt 75%
1lb Crystal Malt 90L 6.3%
1lb Dark Chocolate Malt 6.3%
.75lb Black Patent 4.7%
.50lb Coffee Malt 3.1%
.50lb Brown Malt 3.1%
.25lb Roasted Malt 1.6%

Hops
1.5 Oz Fuggle 60Mins
1 Oz Hallertua Blanc 30 Mins

IBU
43.52

Efficiency
72%

Yeast
US-04

ABV

7.33%

OG 1.074 FG 1.019
 
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Kiln Coffee - Malteries Franco-Belges
Roasted Barley - Simpsons

Thanks for the advice, Might reduce some of the other ingredients i wanna try the coffee malt since i purchased it, Also thinking of adding vanilla soaked in rum or bourbon into the secondary The goal is to get a taste thats heavy in chocolate flavors with a hint of coffee and vanilla might also add .50lb to 1lb oats for that heavy body/creamy taste at the front. could this benefit from Maris Otter Malt ?
 
If you want that heavy body/creamy feel you need a high FG. The highest regarded beer for this style finishes at 1.030 for a 7.5% Beer. The higher FG will help to balance all the dark roast malts, might want to up IBUs as well.

Mash at 162 for 30 minutes and plan your OG accordingly. This will create more long chain sugars so even with a high FG it won’t be as sweet.

It’s all about balance though so it might take a few tries to pull it off perfectly.

What’s your plan for water?
 
The goal is to get a taste thats heavy in chocolate flavors with a hint of coffee and vanilla
Then I would drop the roast barley and brown malt, and cut the black patent to maybe 0.25 or 0.5 lb (keeping crystal, dark chocolate, and coffee malt the same as the original).

might also add .50lb to 1lb oats for that heavy body/creamy taste at the front. could this benefit from Maris Otter Malt ?
Yes to both oats and Maris Otter.

(but I wouldn't call the resulting beer a "Robust Porter", if that matters)
 
You didn't specify which crystal malt you are using, but darker versions lend dark caramel flavor you might be looking for. Chocolate malt doesn't really produce chocolate flavors. It's more like nutty, dry and light roast.

I agree dropping coffee and roasted barley. The amount of chocolate and black patent is more than plenty to give color and desired flavor.

Ibu around 50 would probably balance it nicely.

I might consider using Wyeast 1968 or 1098.
 
English Crystal and Chocoloate is far superior to the American options and maybe some Carafa Special from Weyermann.

The euro malts are just better 90% of the time,
 
If your coffee malt is simpsons, then it's something others usually refer to as dark crystal malt, 150 lovibond. Go ahead and leave it in the recipe, but try to keep your specialty grains around 15% at max. There's also the risk of ending up with a very high FG because lover mash conversion and unfermentable sugars from the specialty grains.

I would mash at medium temperature and full 60min.

E. No wait, the coffee malt is just kilned, not caramelized? If so, it might have pretty harsh flavor and need long maturing to mellow.
 
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We have a well with a osmosis system, The waters Tasty. I havent does any ph level tests or chlorine sulfate manesium etc. that system should filter most of it if not all and balance the water. I revised the recipe let me know what you guys think about this. Also the malts are Briess all specialty malts are Briess and my base malt "2 row" from Canada we have some of the best malting barley known worldwide.
 

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If your coffee malt is simpsons, then it's something others usually refer to as dark crystal malt, 150 lovibond. Go ahead and leave it in the recipe, but try to keep your specialty grains around 15% at max. There's also the risk of ending up with a very high FG because lover mash conversion and unfermentable sugars from the specialty grains.

I would mash at medium temperature and full 60min.

E. No wait, the coffee malt is just kilned, not caramelized? If so, it might have pretty harsh flavor and need long maturing to mellow.

The coffee malt is kilned Malteries Franco-Belges, half a pound in a sixteen pound recipe should mellow quite abit after 45 days?
 
We have a well with a osmosis system, The waters Tasty. I havent does any ph level tests or chlorine sulfate manesium etc. that system should filter most of it if not all and balance the water. I revised the recipe let me know what you guys think about this. Also the malts are Briess all specialty malts are Briess and my base malt "2 row" from Canada we have some of the best malting barley known worldwide.

You’re gonna need to add some bicarbonates so the roasted malts don’t drive down your PH. You’ll end up with a very harsh beer. Or you can add the roasted malts for the last few minutes of the mash but I’m not a big fan of that. RO water with no adjustments is not going to make a good dark beer.

As far as Barley goes, in terms of the crystal and roasted it has little to do with the barley itself but more how it’s processed. Next time your at your LHBS taste every crystal or roasted malt against a Simpsons/Fawcett/Castle/Weyermann option. You’ll notice a difference.
 
The coffee malt is kilned Malteries Franco-Belges, half a pound in a sixteen pound recipe should mellow quite abit after 45 days?
Yes, I would think so. The flavor changes quite drastically in beers like this and especially because of the coffee malt, expect the beer to have this kinda dry and bitter/harsh aftertaste if you sample it soon after packaging.

My baltic porter had somewhat similar malt bill and after about three months in the bottle it was very smooth and gentle.
 
I used that Franco-Belges coffee malt recently and it is very strong flavored, just as an additional data point. The stout I used it in was pretty astringent.
 
You’re gonna need to add some bicarbonates so the roasted malts don’t drive down your PH. You’ll end up with a very harsh beer. Or you can add the roasted malts for the last few minutes of the mash but I’m not a big fan of that. RO water with no adjustments is not going to make a good dark beer.

As far as Barley goes, in terms of the crystal and roasted it has little to do with the barley itself but more how it’s processed. Next time your at your LHBS taste every crystal or roasted malt against a Simpsons/Fawcett/Castle/Weyermann option. You’ll notice a difference.

So the tap water without Os is about 7-6.9ph And after being treated its about 7.1-7.2ph So i could use baking soda to raise the ph If its below 5.5ph and thats the target ph for porters? dont have test stripes to test sulfate chloride, megnesium, sodium, bicarbonates, novice move i figure i would get the recipes down packed then focus on dialing in the water so im quite new with this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/water-adjustment-sodium-bicarbonate-and-mash-ph.579233/

Get your pale beer predicted mash pH to 5.4 and dark beer to 5.5

Could i use: baking soda/ citric acid, as a ph adjuster
 
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So the tap water without Os is about 7-6.9ph And after being treated its about 7.1-7.2ph So i could use baking soda to raise the ph If its below 5.5ph and thats the target ph for porters? dont have test stripes to test sulfate chloride, megnesium, sodium, bicarbonates, novice move i figure i would get the recipes down packed then focus on dialing in the water so im quite new with this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/water-adjustment-sodium-bicarbonate-and-mash-ph.579233/

Get your pale beer predicted mash pH to 5.4 and dark beer to 5.5

Could i use: baking soda/ citric acid, as a ph adjuster

If you have RO filtered water as long as the filters have been changed somewhat recently you’re basically starting from scratch with everything. It doesn’t really matter what the PH of the RO is as it should be devoid of most buffering minerals. I would assume your minerals are basically less than 10. You’re gonna need to add some CA for yeast health. I doubt you’ll need to use any acid at all unless you add too much Baking soda. Do you have Bru’n water? You can plug everything in there and get a pretty predictable mash PH. Yes higher is better for darker beers.
 
If you have RO filtered water as long as the filters have been changed somewhat recently you’re basically starting from scratch with everything. It doesn’t really matter what the PH of the RO is as it should be devoid of most buffering minerals. I would assume your minerals are basically less than 10. You’re gonna need to add some CA for yeast health. I doubt you’ll need to use any acid at all unless you add too much Baking soda. Do you have Bru’n water? You can plug everything in there and get a pretty predictable mash PH. Yes higher is better for darker beers.

Yeah its RO, i would assume that its 97% or better so 10ppm TDS or less, so in other words all i would mainly have to do is adjust my ph according? and if ions all close to netrual i can jsut add salts ?
 
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https://byo.com/article/the-power-of-ph/

Good read, So the phosphates in the darker malt will lower the mash to accessible level all on its own and i might need to add calsuim just as a buffer for the yeast as my ppm are probably close to neutral good range is about 50-150ppm.

If you were using water high in bicarbonate to start with, yes. The bicarbonates buffer against the acidic dark malts. Without the bicarbonates your mash pH with RO water and all those roasted malts would end up probably below 5 or somewhere around there and you’ll end up with a harsh/ashy tasting beer.
 
In my opinion, too much crystal and black/dark malt. When a recipe looks impressive it doesn't necessarily make impressive beer.
As some of the brewers mentioned pH will be low due to crystal and dark malt being inherently acidic.
Maybe keep the specialty malt to the side and steep it, I'd boil it a little bit. Cool it, test pH, and add the liquid into the base mash until desired pH is hit. The inherent pH of ale malt reduces pH of RO water to usually 5.7/5.8 right off the bat. Maybe if pH is a little high add some of the dark mash to reduce pH before sparge.

"Mash at 162 for 30 minutes and plan your OG accordingly. This will create more long chain sugars so even with a high FG it won’t be as sweet."

Alpha doesn't work quite that way on starch. During a rest at 162F Alpha releases more sweet tasting, nonfermenting, sugar than glucose. When a high mash temperature of 162F is used, it's used at the end and when two lower mash temperatures are used, first. The length of the rest varies, it's based on the lengths of the other two rests which are based on the style/type of beer. It has to do with balance.

During primary fermentation yeast rips through glucose, cranking up ABV and leaves complex sugar, dextrin, and sweet, nonfermenting sugar behind.
The lower the mash temperature during saccharification, more glucose is released. Moonshiners rest mash at 150F because Alpha cranks out more glucose than sweet, nonfermenting sugar.
When amylo-pectin is in solution Alpha release A and B limit dextrin which are types of sugar responsible for body and mouthfeel. The types of sugar are tasteless and nonfermenting. The starch makes up the tips of grain, because it's complex starch it's the richest starch. Take a look in spent mash and you'll notice a bunch of small, white particles, it's amylo-pectin. It's left in spent mash because temperatures used during infusion brewing aren't high enough to allow the starch to enter into solution before Alpha denatures.
At 162F Beta is wiped out. When Beta is wiped out conversion won't occur. When conversion doesn't occur, maltose and malto-triose, complex types of sugar that are needed to make ale and lager, don't form. When the sugar doesn't form secondary fermentation isn't required and the beer needs to be primed with sugar or injected with CO2 for carbonation.

Alpha is responsible for: Liquefaction (amylose starch chain is cut), saccharification (sweet tasting, nonfermenting sugar and glucose are released when the chain is cut), dextrinization (A and B limit dextrin are released from amylo-pectin).
Beta is responsible for conversion. During conversion Beta converts simple sugar, glucose, released by Alpha into complex sugar, maltose and malto-triose. Conversion has nothing to do with starch.
When a recipe recommends high modified malt, single infusion, only primary fermentation and adding sugar or CO2 for carbonation, the beer will be similar in quality to Prohibition style beer.

I believe there are three or four companies producing Marris Otter, one is producing low protein malt. Go on line and find the spec sheets for the malt and use the malt with the lowest percentage of protein. The company is producing 8% protein Marris Otter. The less protein, the more sugar. The pH, level of modification (Kolbach), color, extract efficiency, gravity per pound, saccharification time, are a few numbers listed on a spec sheet. Every sack of malt comes with one because malt is inconsistent.
 
@Hopalong so what would be your suggested mash schedule to intentionally produce a less fermentable wort with the goal to be higher than normal final gravity. Something close to 1.030 even for a say 7% beer.
 
I'll guess imo i would make my base malts 75-80% at 148F-154F and then my specialty bill add the differents to make up the OG-FG target 7% at 1.03FG so the specialty grains plus a bit of base malt @162+ to separite mashed then combined.
 
So i realize the crystal i got is way to dark going along side the dark chocolate malt, I know there are total legit/great recipes But here goes nothing. this might have a better balance ive tryed to blend the malts in so theres a good light to dark specialty grains i do want this to be more on the dark cho side but i also need that caramel note to come through.

10lb pale malt
1.25lb dark cho
1lb crystal 40L
1lb maris otter
.50lb crystal 90L
.50lb coffee malt
.25lb roasted barley
.25lb brown malt
.25lb maltodextrin
.15lb black patient
abv 7%

60min 1.5oz styrian goldings
35min 1oz ahtanum
15min 1.5oz styrian goldings
ibu 52
 
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I just designed a robust porter last night for my next brew day. I don't have access to my recipe software right now but mine is somewhere around 80% Maris Otter with about 12% brown malt and the remaining 8% split evenly between chocolate and black patent. I have one addition of UK Fuggle hops at 60 minutes (I believe the IBU estimate was 30-something) And I will add oak chips for a week or two after fermentation is done.

Complex grists are fine if you can justify what each ingredient will achieve and if the achieve the end result you are looking for. I kind of agree with hopaling that you have too much going on here.
 
I just designed a robust porter last night for my next brew day. I don't have access to my recipe software right now but mine is somewhere around 80% Maris Otter with about 12% brown malt and the remaining 8% split evenly between chocolate and black patent. I have one addition of UK Fuggle hops at 60 minutes (I believe the IBU estimate was 30-something) And I will add oak chips for a week or two after fermentation is done.

Complex grists are fine if you can justify what each ingredient will achieve and if the achieve the end result you are looking for. I kind of agree with hopaling that you have too much going on here.

This is essentially the porter I'm brewing this weekend. 80% Maris Otter and 7% each of brown malt, chocolate malt, and black patent. I'll be calculating hops on the fly to give me a BU/GU of about 0.55. My OG should be around 1.085 so it's putting my around 40 IBUs with a 60 min Fuggle addition and adding oak after primary.
 
Thinking about for my next porter:
9.5 Maris otter
1 crystal 40
.75 brown malt
.25 coffee malt
.75 chocolate
1 oz fuggle at 60
London ale yeast.

Last porter had 1 pound brown malt and no coffee. Wanted a little hint of coffee and a little darker porter.
Would it be better to decrease the crystal down by .25 pound than the brown?
 
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Historically porters were super-simple recipes. In their heyday in the mid-19th century, they were typically 80-85% pale malt (probably Chevallier), 3% black malt and the rest brown malt (rarely with a bit of amber).

Three ingredients - all you need for porter.

Now you can make a bit of an argument for some crystal if you're using Otter instead of Chevallier, but not much, <5%.

For my taste, I'd go for something with less attenuation than S-04.
 
So how does this sound for a traditional porter:

12.5 Chevallier
2 brown malt
.5 black malt

Mash 154 for 60

.5 oz fuggle at 60
.5 Northern Brewer at 5

Wlp 002 yeast?
 
This is essentially the porter I'm brewing this weekend. 80% Maris Otter and 7% each of brown malt, chocolate malt, and black patent. I'll be calculating hops on the fly to give me a BU/GU of about 0.55. My OG should be around 1.085 so it's putting my around 40 IBUs with a 60 min Fuggle addition and adding oak after primary.

IMHO that's a very different grain bill. Brown malt is only 70srm, but chocolate (unless pale chocolate) is 350-450, and your BP is probably 550. You're looking at 14% dark roasted grains which may be a bit much. The recipe you quoted has only 8% of the really dark stuff.

Historically porters were super-simple recipes. In their heyday in the mid-19th century, they were typically 80-85% pale malt (probably Chevallier), 3% black malt and the rest brown malt (rarely with a bit of amber).

Three ingredients - all you need for porter.

Now you can make a bit of an argument for some crystal if you're using Otter instead of Chevallier, but not much, <5%.

For my taste, I'd go for something with less attenuation than S-04.

Huh. I haven't used the 04 in a couple of years, but it was always a lower attenuator for me (which I liked). It always produced FGs much higher than 05 and notty. I've anecdotally found 002 to be a good replacement in that department, and I like the flavor better.
 
So how does this sound for a traditional porter:

12.5 Chevallier
2 brown malt
.5 black malt

Mash 154 for 60

.5 oz fuggle at 60
.5 Northern Brewer at 5

Wlp 002 yeast?

On my phone at the moment but og looks a bit high? For an 1840s-ish recipe you’re looking at 1.055-1.060.

If you’re being picky then Goldings are the only easily-obtained current hop from before the 1870s, but Fuggle is probably a reasonable approximation to the Colgates and Grapes they would have likely used. I’d replace the NB with Fuggle - keeps things simple.

Yeast - 002 is fine, 041 is a slightly fruitier cousin of 002, despite being labelled Pacific.

There’s an argument for a secondary with Brett-C, having tried both, I think the Brett version is more complex but non-Brett is more drinkable, the sweet spot is probably a blend with 25–50% Brett-C.
 
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