Help choosing a ro system

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jigtwins

jigtwins

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Posted this in a different forum, but did not get any response. Thought I would try it here also. I am looking to get a ro filter for my brewing water only. Not sure where to start. Would like some input from those of you that have one. Pros/cons of brands, and availability of replacement filters. Would like to keep the cost down if possible.
 
gatsby174 said:
I have a 5 stage from bulkreefsupply.com and LOVE it.
Click to expand...
That would be a full Di system wouldn't it? Do you buy your chemical additives in bulk?

I use a Kent 4 stage and pull my water prior to the DI resin

To the OP : filters are filters, they're 10 a penny ($50+) on lots of Saltwater Fish/Reef forums.
Cartridges are generally standard sizes and 99% interchangeable.

IMO, you do not need the DI addition so could go with 10u, 5u, 1u+carbon, RO Membrane
 
I have the 4 stage RO from bulkreefsupply- and it's been great. I still haven't even needed to change the filters and I've had it a couple of years.

It would depend on your water, of course, but mine is high in bicarb and it takes care of that with a 75 gpd rating. I can fill my HLT in about 6 hours (14 gallons).

I paid $119 a couple of years ago, and I think it's more like $139 now on their site.
 
Not to hijack the Ops thread but with RO systems you end up with large volumes of waste water, correct?
Do you repropose this water or do you have large water bills?
 
I have a Hydrologics Evolution system typically sold for hydroponics.
Its a reasonably priced system and you cant argue with the Wardlabs report. And this was with 2 year old membranes.
pH 6.7
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 8
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.01
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.1 / < 0.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 1
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 3
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S < 1
Chloride, Cl < 1
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 < 1
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 < 1
Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
 
ChefRex said:
Not to hijack the Ops thread but with RO systems you end up with large volumes of waste water, correct?
Do you repropose this water or do you have large water bills?
Click to expand...

I sometimes put the waste water tubing into my washer, and then just add borax and washing soda to the detergent for washing clothes. Or, water plants with the waste water- they don't seem to mind.

There is a LOT of waste water- maybe 4 gallons to every one gallon of RO(?) so in an area with water restrictions or with water availability issues, I wouldn't do this.
 
Yooper said:
I have the 4 stage RO from bulkreefsupply- and it's been great. I still haven't even needed to change the filters and I've had it a couple of years.

It would depend on your water, of course, but mine is high in bicarb and it takes care of that with a 75 gpd rating. I can fill my HLT in about 6 hours (14 gallons).

I paid $119 a couple of years ago, and I think it's more like $139 now on their site.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, RO membranes..., OP -> The RO membranes are interchangeable as well, they start at maybe 10gallons per day and up to 100gallons per day. With these, you will need a way to discharge "gray water". My water is good to start with so I only throw away about 1.5:1 gray to good water
 
Reisende said:
Myself, and I would wager many others, would recommend the iSpring RO systems:
Click to expand...

Wrong as usual!

ChefRex said:
with RO systems you end up with large volumes of waste water, correct?
Click to expand...

Yes, RO is a high-waste method of water filtration. However, when used to produce a high amount of filtered water at once (i.e. fill a 14 gal HLT), the waste is greatly minimized. The issue is when you have, say, a RO faucet near your sink that you fill single glasses from.
 
The hydrologics ro unit I run is 2:1 rejection rate. That's a very acceptable number for near distilled quality water.
 
Thank you all for the quick response and wealth of information. I have been searching the web for a few hours today reading about,and comparing different systems. Good to know the filters are easy to get and not brand specific. I will have to check out reef supply too.
 
Buckeye hydro is another good place to get your RO supplies. All RO systems pretty much come with the same housing, but with buckeye you get high quality filters and top notch customer support.
 
I went simple and cheap.

Aquatic Life RO Buddie Three Stage Reverse Osmosis, 50-Gallon https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DOG63OY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I use a Lowe's bucket outfitted with a float valve to catch the filtered water. The float valve cuts the water off and I empty the bucket a couple of times into my kettle to collect it. I just run the waste line outside to water the plants.
 
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AquaFX Barracuda RO/DI Units

This is one brand I won't recommend. I bought the unit many years ago complete with pressure tank and faucet for kitchen sink. I worked great until the housing decided to split for no good reason. Good thing the wife was home or it would have flooded the entire house.

Shut the water off to it and let it hang in the utility room for several years and finally started home brewing. Went to use the other filters for a carbon filter and on first use another housing split.

I just use the bracket to hold a couple of filters I bought at home depot or lowes, I don't remember which right now, for a sediment and carbon filter.
 
The wasting rate for household RO units is fairly high since they are designed to work with most water supplies. The type of ionic content and total content (TDS) of the raw water affect what that wasting rate needs to be to reduce scaling (clogging) of the membrane. While I have the modeling tools needed to evaluate how low the wasting rate can be reduced to based on the raw water quality, most would not. So most are stuck with the high wasting rate. But for those of you that feed your RO system with ion-exchange softened water, you could probably reduce the wasting rate quite a bit. For the industrial RO systems I design, accounting for the raw water quality and reducing the wasting rate to the degree possible, is important for efficiency.

For home systems, all you need is 3 stages: particulate filter, carbon filter, and RO membrane. Anything more than that is just fluff. Dual particulate filters (5 and 10 micron) are not necessary for most municipal water systems since the raw water probably has few particulates. The other good thing about particulate filters is that as they fill with sediment, they typically filter even better. The downside is that the pressure drop may become excessive. The home RO membranes do have a minimum supply pressure requirement and excessive head loss through the particulate filter may violate that. Its too bad that systems don't come with pressure gauges on each side of the particulate filter to give an indication when the filter is too clogged.

Carbon filters are necessary to remove chlorine compounds from municipal water supplies. If you are on a well, you don't really need a carbon filter unless there are organic tastes or odors in the well water. Carbon is actually consumed when chlorine compounds contact the carbon. So there is a stoichiometric relationship to how quickly your carbon filter is used up, but there are too many variables to quantify that. So we are pretty much left with testing the water after its gone through the carbon filter to assure that its still removing the chlorine compounds. Its too bad that home systems don't come with a sample tap on the line between the carbon filter and the RO membrane so that we could collect a sample for Total Chlorine testing.

Enough! That summary gives you an idea of the basic needs for a RO system. I don't know about that AquaFX unit, but most units available today are constructed out of generic parts that everybody uses. If the AquaFX unit uses proprietary housings or filters, that may be a reason that it failed. There is no reason for the generic parts to fail since they tend to have the same specification. The one thing I do caution is to check your water supply pressure. There are plenty of places where the pressure can be over 100 psi. The general rule of thumb for water supplies into houses is that the pressure fall in the range of 60 to 80 psi. High pressure can crack housings.
 
ChefRex said:
Not to hijack the Ops thread but with RO systems you end up with large volumes of waste water, correct?
Do you repropose this water or do you have large water bills?
Click to expand...


If you have enough pressure you can hook up the drain of the ro membrane into the input of a second ro membrane. This essentially doubles the output while cutting waste water drastically.
 
Tons of great information. I greatly appreciate everyone's input here. I picked out a 4 stage from bulk reef supply. Should be here this week. Thanks again for the replies, and information.
 
+1 for bulk reef supply. Added the 150 gallon upgraded, which is a second RO on the output of the first, I get my 26 gallon in a few hours, rejection rate in the 1.25:1 range. The waste goes in a rain collection barrel, which is then run through counter flow chiller first pass at ambient, back to rain barrel, then second through immersion in ice bath and out to plants. Being in So Cal with our water restriction , we need to be creative with water reuse.
 
TexasWine said:
I went simple and cheap.

Aquatic Life RO Buddie Three Stage Reverse Osmosis, 50-Gallon https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DOG63OY/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I use a Lowe's bucket outfitted with a float valve to catch the filtered water. The float valve cuts the water off and I empty the bucket a couple of times into my kettle to collect it. I just run the waste line outside to water the plants.
Click to expand...



This looks perfect for my needs. About how long does it take to make 5 gal?
 
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schiersteinbrewing said:
This looks perfect for my needs. About how long does it take to make 5 gal?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I've never timed it. I just start collecting water a couple days beforehand. Turn it on when I get home from work, collect a buckets worth, turn it off before going to bed, repeat the the next. If I were to guess it'd be around 2 gallons an hour or so. Takes a couple evenings to get enough for my 6 gallon batches.
 
My water supply remains about 60 to 65 PSI, if I remember correctly. The AquaFX unit uses the standard cartridges for the sediment/carbon filters but I believe their housings are proprietary. Both cracked right around the O ring portion.

As I said the first one was hanging in the utility room behind the dryer so it was next to impossible for it to be bumped or smacked. When I finally got into home brewing I unhooked the RO filter and was just going from particulate to carbon. Before I could get my first batch filtered another housing broke. This time hanging on the garage wall with an RV hose feeding it and the output wide open on the 1/4" line. So I can't believe the pressure was too great.

I bought this system back when I kept Reef Tanks. It worked great, until it didn't. It's just the sudden didn't part that bothered me.
 
http://www.homebrewfilters.com/brew-water-filters.html

What are the opinion on the ones these people sell???

I'm building a 1 barrel electric system and don't want to use the tap water plus economically can't afford to use bottled drinking water by the gallon anymore.

Mabrungard ....... your thoughts on them?
Got any links to what you consider decent for somebody needing 35 gallons at a time ( starting the thing a day or 2 ahead of time isn't an issue)
 
Paps said:
http://www.homebrewfilters.com/brew-water-filters.html

What are the opinion on the ones these people sell???

I'm building a 1 barrel electric system and don't want to use the tap water plus economically can't afford to use bottled drinking water by the gallon anymore.

Mabrungard ....... your thoughts on them?
Got any links to what you consider decent for somebody needing 35 gallons at a time ( starting the thing a day or 2 ahead of time isn't an issue)
Click to expand...


Personally, as long as the system uses standardized filters like 10"x2.5" then I don't think it matter what brand you get. Just get something that isn't proprietary that you would have to pay out the @$$ for.
 
Here are some things to look for in a small (residential scale - typically less than 150 gpd) RO system:
*No more than 3 stages (sediment, carbon, RO) unless you have specific water quality issues you want to address (e.g., high sediment loads, chloramine). If you also want a system with a pressurized storage container, then you'll need an additional carbon filter after the tank.
*Standard-sized prefilters and RO membrane
*A carbon block prefilter rather than GAC
*Brand name, high-rejection RO membrane
*Specifications provided for each stage
*Pressure gauge after the prefilters and before the membrane
*TDS meter (handheld or in-line)
*Rust-proof bracket
*Quick connect fittings
*Optional flush valve
*Clear housings
*High-quality instructions written in clear English
*Customer support before, during, and after your purchase

Russ
 
Realize that when you see a system rated at for example 24, or 36, or 50, or 75 gallons per day (gpd), the vendor is telling you the spec on the RO membrane (typically + or - 20%). Assuming you are sending the purified water ("permeate") to an open container rather than a pressurized storage tank, you'll get somewhere near that many gpd only if your conditions (primarily water temperature and water pressure) match the conditions under which the membrane manufacturer tests their membranes.

All residential membrane manufacturers I'm aware of test their membranes at 77F (25C). Check your water temperature - for most people it will be colder that 77F. Colder water yields slower permeate production.

In terms of test pressures, Filmtec uses 50F, and other manufacturers use 60 or 65 psi. If you have lower pressure you'll get slower production as well.

We have a calculator (link on our homepage) where you can plug in your water temperature and water pressure and see an estimate of what you can expect in terms of gpd production.

Russ
 
In terms of how much concentrate ("waste water") a residential RO system produces relative to the amount of permeate ("RO water"), realize that it is affected by your water pressure and temperature (and other things to a lesser extent), and is controlled on residential systems by a little $4 part called a flow restrictor. YOU can control the amount of concentrate produced by installing a different flow restrictor. Will take you all of about 30 seconds. But... and Martin alluded to this in one of his posts, the more you choke off the concentrate, the more likely you are to shorten the useful life of the $35 to $55 membrane. For larger membranes this can be modeled with available software, but for these "1812" residential membranes most people just stick with a ratio of about 4 parts concentrate to 1 part permeate. With softened water you'd likely have reasonable results going to a 3:1 or 2:1.

So realize when a vendor promotes a system with a magic 1:1 ratio - typically all they've done is install a tighter flow restrictor. In many instances however (and they typically don't mention this) you'll also shorten the life of the RO membrane.

We had a customer last week that ruined two commercial RO membranes in less than two weeks - because they monkeyed around with the amount of concentrate in an effort to reduce water usage without understanding that the concentrate flow serves an important purpose in protecting the membrane.

Russ
 
dcrog said:
My water supply remains about 60 to 65 PSI, if I remember correctly. The AquaFX unit uses the standard cartridges for the sediment/carbon filters but I believe their housings are proprietary. Both cracked right around the O ring portion.

As I said the first one was hanging in the utility room behind the dryer so it was next to impossible for it to be bumped or smacked. When I finally got into home brewing I unhooked the RO filter and was just going from particulate to carbon. Before I could get my first batch filtered another housing broke. This time hanging on the garage wall with an RV hose feeding it and the output wide open on the 1/4" line. So I can't believe the pressure was too great.

I bought this system back when I kept Reef Tanks. It worked great, until it didn't. It's just the sudden didn't part that bothered me.
Click to expand...

This is one of the many things that come to mind every time I hear someone say "all those RO systems are alike - just buy the cheapest one." Nothing could be further from the truth. If you like clear sumps on your housings, avoid housings with male threads on the sump - they often come with 2 orings. We've repaired approx. 1 gazillion systems over the years, and these housings tend to crack.

Also remember that no matter what sort of housing you use, don't use a housing wrench and brute strength to try to get housings to seal. Some low end housings are made poorly and tend to leak. But all housings seal at an oring. So if you have trouble with a housing leaking at the threads, first remove, wash, lube, and reinstall the oring. Use a food grade silicone grease. Then tighten the housing by hand, and maybe just a slight tweak with a housing wrench. If it still leaks, replace the oring. If you overtighten housings to try to get them to seal, something like this is probably in your future:

cheaphousingbrokeatthreads_zpsdf52e861.jpg


Russ
 
jimyson said:
I've read the use of a permeable pump take a 4:1 waste ratio down to 1:1 and increases efficiency of the membrane as well.
Click to expand...

I think you mean a permeate pump. These pumps only work on systems pushing water into a PRESSURIZED storage container.

And truth be told, if you have a pressure tank, your ratio will likely be much higher than a 4:1. That tank exerts pressure "backwards" on the membrane, reducing the net pressure available to drive the RO process.

Permeate pumps do work. They are not electric, so no need to worry about your electric bill nor any heat issues. There are two sizes available - one for systems with membranes of 50 gpd and less, and one for larger residential membranes.

Russ
 
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If its not apparent yet...brewers considering a RO system might want to check what Russ can do for you.

Please remember that adage: Penny wise, pound foolish. Don't be too cheap or you'll pay for it later.
 

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