Hefeweizen fans, looking for tips on AG cloning Paulaner/Weihenstephaner ...

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Horseflesh

Horseflesh

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Hef is perhaps my favorite style, and I have made them many times with OK results. My typical approach is 50-70% red wheat, with the remainder pilsner malt... pretty much our own EdWort's recipe.

The beer is good, but when I drink a Paulaner or Weihenstephaner I notice some substantial differences that I would like to replicate. The commercial beers are darker, with a nice orange hue. And more importantly, they have a much more pronounced malty flavor.

I've added melanoidin malt before and it wasn't bad, but ... it wasn't the same. Not even close. Not even when I accidentally added a LOT more than I intended. ;)

Do... do I have to do a decoction? I will do it if I have to!

How can I get that rich malt character I'm lacking?

Thanks in advance for any tips you may have!
 
This is kind of opening a can of worms, but you may want to look into low oxygen brewing (check the all-grain sub forum). The low oxygen guys claim that it is the secret to getting that pronounced malt flavor present in German beers. I just finished my first low oxygen brewday today, so I can’t comment fully on the outcome.

As far as recipe, Weyermann CaraHell is really the secret ingredient in my German beers. I like about 6-8% in my Hefe. It really fills out the flavor ie. It contributes malty sweet, bready, any very subtle caramel flavors.
 
My personal opinion is that it is the yeast. I like the yeast 3944 for the flavor. Ferment a little cooler than max at about 68-70?
 
I spent 6 months in Germany back in 2009 and was enchanted by the magic of the hefe. Paulaner and Franziskaner in particular. It wrecked all beer that followed for some time afterwards.

So when I started homebrewing, I wanted to claim back that magic. After a dozen or so tries at the hefe style I'm at a point now where I'm totally happy with what I'm making, it's as good as I remember the proper stuff to be (although that could just be bad memory). It definitely has that yummy malt flavour you are talking about.

IMO it's a combination of doing several things well, which is why this isn't an easy beer to brew at all.

The key one though is a warm sacc rest. 69c / 156f will give you a high FG (1.015 - 1.018) which gives wonderful malty flavours as part of the mix. Use a little more bittering to balance this, 15 IBU or so works.

Also ferment cool (17c / 62f) so it's not a banana bomb, step mash with ferulic acid rest (43c) to promote clove. Stick with the classic yeast strains, WLP300 or Wy3068, underpitch so you are pitching 25-50% of what you'd do for a regular ale, and don't aerate. If you don't see some activity after 24-48h, pitch a bit more. Don't pressure-ferment or you mute the yeast character.

With the grain bill use the German brand malts (Weyermann or similar), add in 3% melanoidian malt for malt complexity, 3% acidulated or as needed for pH control and up to 0.5% Carafa II for color. It's meant to look burnt orange like a pale ale, not yellow like a pilsner. Some people add 5-10% Munich instead of the carafa for color and malt complexity. I add a small amount of calcium chloride since my water is basically RO but this should be a low-mineral beer.

I like to either bottle condition or naturally condition in the keg. I tried bottling from a force-carbed keg on one batch and it lost all the magic.

I've tried decoction mashes and while good, the flavour isn't better enough to justify the extra time and cleaning compared with a step mash. I do step mashes because it's easy with electric, some people get good results with single-infusion.

I don't do anything about hot-side oxidation, I think it's probably important but I don't have the gear to go down that road yet. Instead I'm very careful about post-fermentation oxidation and I think this is important for all beer styles.

Hope this helps.
 
I had my first Hefe Weizen in February 1975 (Augsburg, Germany).

I've been brewing them since 1994.

I went back to Germany on vacation a number of times before getting stationed in Bamberg (1999- 2004).

Here's my variation of PINKUS HEFE WEIZEN from Brew Classic European Beers At Home, p 164, that I've been brewing for a number of years.

Feel free to use it if you want to.

I prefer mine on the sweeter banana side of the flavor profile. This is why I only use 2AAU of hops.

It is fairly pale (not Wit beer pale) with an orange tinge with a malty, but light body.

OG: 1.050 / FG: 1.011
4.2% ABW / 5.2% ABV

__ WLP300 Hefe Weizen Ale yeast.
__ Make starter 1-2 days prior.

Ingredients:
__ 5#, 12 oz Wheat malt
__ 8 oz Rice Hulls
__ 3#, 12 oz Pale malt
__ 2 AAU Hallertau (German Traditional) hops (60 mins)

Temperature Stepped Infusion Mash. (First water temp needs to be 10-11F higher than target).

Mash Schedule:
__ 122F for 30 mins.
__ 151F for 60 mins.

__ Second water addition AND Batch Sparge with NEAR BOILING water to raise mash temp.
__ Collect 6.5 - 7 gals.

Total Boil Time: 90 mins.

__ Boil 30 mins.
__ Add hops.
__ Boil 45 mins.
__ Add Wort Chiller.
__ Boil 15 mins.
__ Chill to fermentation temp and aerate.
__ Pitch yeast.
__ Ferment between 68-70F to completion.
__ Prime with 5-6 oz Corn Sugar if bottling.
__ Store around 70F for 1-2 weeks before sampling.
__ When the desired carbonation level is reached place the bottles in a cold place/fridge. MINIMUM: 48 hours, 1 week is better.

NOTE: I usually brew on Sundays. I've gotten accustomed to brewing 1 batch and racking it to a carboy the following Sunday and brewing a second batch. I use 1 cup of yeast slurry from the 1st batch for the 2nd batch. The first batch usually clears while the 2nd is fermenting. At bottling, I rack a very small amount of yeast from the primary of the 2nd batch prior to blending both batches. I usually end up with about 70 - .5 liter bottles.
 
Wow, great post, thanks for sharing that - going to have to try your recipe. Have been using decoction mashing for my hefe and it's time consuming for sure.
 
Monty0124 said:
Wow, great post, thanks for sharing that - going to have to try your recipe. Have been using decoction mashing for my hefe and it's time consuming for sure.
Click to expand...

You're welcome. From what I've read, based on modern malts, decoction isn't necessary. There's certainly nothing stopping anyone from doing them. I never have.
 
Not to steer you away from this great site, but their is an excellent write-up on "Hefe Weissbier, Bavarian Style" on a certain other site that advocates beer under the home brewing section that will steer you correctly. Just my two cents and take it for what you will, but if it's maltiness your after melanoiden will not get you their, low oxygen brewing will.
 
try the american white wheat (easier to crush) at about 60% to 40% vienna and half a pound rice hulls... protein rest for 30min at 120 and mash at 150.. use munich classic (dry) yeast and also hallertau blanc hops (about .5oz at 60 and .5oz at 10min if making 5.5 gallon batch)

WLP300 or Wy3068 for liquid yeast..
 
That link is pure gold. THANK YOU! I am about to try a hefe again after steering away for a while. My first attempts were abysmal at best due to many beginner's errors.
 
The correct type of (liquid) yeast will be very important because it produces the phenolic/estery taste and a full, yeasty texture. And you want to do a step mash (if not willing to do decoction, which is not mandatory). At least some sort of ferulic rest, some conversion at 60-67C and a late alpha rest at 70-72C. Or just a ferulic rest 45C (according to taste, less or not at all for banana esters and 20min for more clove and less esters) followed by conversion at about 67-68C. A schedule that will leave a little bit of body. Malts should be mostly quality wheat malt and pilsner malt and maltiness can be increased by using a little bit of Münich malt (or dark wheat malt). Some people use crystal type of malt but this is not always necessary. Color can be added with these same malts or even with 0-2% of roasted malts (less common).

Bottle/(keg) it soon after fermentation, Schneider brewery did not have a conditioning tank at all until they started brewing the Kristall version. So forget the common homebrewing wisdom "leave it there for a month or two" when brewing Weizens. They just bottle (Kräusening-like method) almost immediately to keep it fresh, tasty and yeasty. They also conduct an open fermentation but that may not be so critical at home brewing scale. And don't get fooled by the freakish low oxygen talk, just avoid introducing air post fermentation, as well as you can.
 
Last edited:
Sadu said:
I add a small amount of calcium chloride since my water is basically RO but this should be a low-mineral beer.
Click to expand...
I'm curious how much? 30ppm chloride?

Thanks for the post!

I love hefeweizen. Imports are rarely fresh and American versions generally aren't to my taste. Need to brew it myself for sure.
 
FatDragon said:
Their 500mL bottles are great, too. Paulaner and Erdinger half liters are really thin and prone to breaking with repeated use, but the Franziskaner half liter bottles I've got feel like they'd survive a nuclear bombing.
Click to expand...

I brought back about 15 racks (plastic cases) of .5 liter bottles from Germany when I came back to the U.S. in 2004. Mostly flippies. I'm still using them.

tgodsill: Nice post. Thanks.
 
Sadu said:
Also ferment cool (17c / 62f) so it's not a banana bomb, step mash with ferulic acid rest (43c) to promote clove. Stick with the classic yeast strains, WLP300 or Wy3068, underpitch so you are pitching 25-50% of what you'd do for a regular ale, and don't aerate. If you don't see some activity after 24-48h, pitch a bit more. Don't pressure-ferment or you mute the yeast
Click to expand...

homebrewer_99 said:
__ WLP300 Hefe Weizen Ale yeast.
__ Make starter 1-2 days prior.
Click to expand...

Do you guys ever get the terrible sulfur smell and associated bad taste post fermentation. I'm plagued by it every time. I've done extract brew, all grain, starter, no starter, yeast nutrient, no nutrient, ferment low 60s, high 60s. And it doesn't go away for me. Ruins the beer forever. What say you?
 
tgodsill said:
Cloudy, what yeast are you using?
Click to expand...

Usually 3068. There are a ton of threads on it's sulfur smell, but most people say it fades. My hefes never get better with time. I can make good beer with dry yeast, but 3068 just doesn't like me.
 
I don't recall getting sulfur smells with WLP300. I used to use WLP051 (for many years) before switching to WLP300, which I like better.

Just keep in mind that fermentation is a natural process that goes through its stages on its own schedule. In general, sulfur usually dissipates.
 
I never have sulfur problems with 3068. Maybe there are minerals in your water that exacerbate the sulfur aroma? Beats me.

That link above is great, thanks. I noticed that in the basic hefe recipe, the beer pictured looks a lot like mine do with a similar grist--very pale yellow, not at all orange like a Paulaner. The Ur-weisse recipe which uses Munich malt looks more like the Paulaner target.

Fascinating the OP in that thread says pH 5.7-5.9 is OK for these beers!

Reading further... The picture from user invertalon in post 37 looks more orange like I hoped, as does the first picture on page 2, from user 911CROFT. I've never used carahell in a hefe before, I will definitely give this guy's method a shot.

Why does it have to be Monday?! I want to brew NOW.
 
Cloudy, are you using any sodium metabisulfite (camden) tablets in your water? They, and other water based issues, can cause sulfur. What are you using for brewing water?
 
tgodsill said:
Cloudy, are you using any sodium metabisulfite (camden) tablets in your water? They, and other water based issues, can cause sulfur. What are you using for brewing water?
Click to expand...
I have been using store bought distilled water in gallon jugs. It's a bit of work lugging them around, but it's insurance. For a hefe I'll add 5 gms CaCl and about 2 mL lactic acid for full volume mash 5.5 gallons in the fermenter.
 
I also use edwort's recipe, slightly modified. I sub 2lbs of the pils for 2 lbs of munich malt. I ferment wl300 or 3068 usually around 64-65*F.

I love German hefeweizen and this one comes real close.

Haven't tried a decoction yet though.
 
cloudybrewer said:
Do you guys ever get the terrible sulfur smell and associated bad taste post fermentation. I'm plagued by it every time. I've done extract brew, all grain, starter, no starter, yeast nutrient, no nutrient, ferment low 60s, high 60s. And it doesn't go away for me. Ruins the beer forever. What say you?
Click to expand...
Yes, it smells like death for about a week, but it always goes away for me
 
I just created a post about this yesterday. I'm looking for tips as well. The last one I made was too pale and I was looking for something more along the lines of hacker-pschorr or franziskaner where the color came out a little more orange. I found this link and it looks like the color is perfect here's to hoping the flavor is just as good:

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/t/looking-for-a-hacker-pschorr-clone/12212/3

I wonder what level of caramunich they are referring to in that recipe...
 
singybrue said:
Yes, it smells like death for about a week, but it always goes away for me
Click to expand...

Use more zinc in the boil. Beers with a large amount of wheat benefit from the zinc additions. I have 0 sulfur, bottle after a week. I used to have sulphur before starting with servomyces. High ferm-temp also gets rid of the sulphur, obviously.
 
Travis K. Jansen said:
I just created a post about this yesterday. I'm looking for tips as well. The last one I made was too pale and I was looking for something more along the lines of hacker-pschorr or franziskaner where the color came out a little more orange. I found this link and it looks like the color is perfect here's to hoping the flavor is just as good:

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/t/looking-for-a-hacker-pschorr-clone/12212/3

I wonder what level of caramunich they are referring to in that recipe...
Click to expand...

If you are referring to the recipe from the link you posted, it must be Weyermann CaraMunich III, which is around 60L.

I recently brewed a small 4.5% Hefeweizen using Danstar Munich Classic dry yeast ( said to be Weihenstephaner ) and I was very happy with it. I will brew 3 more wheat with this yeast in the upcoming months. I will use it again in 2 Hefeweizens, which this time I will mash higher and 1 Weizenbock, partially inspired by Vitus ( due to the very light, bright colour, crisp palette and overall, incredibly tasty and really well-done ) with maybe some stone fruit additions and a bit of vanilla. :rock:

But overall, for those of you using dry yeast, Munich Classic is very good, for a dry yeast and even better for a dry Hefe yeast. Fermenting a bit higher will produce stronger esters and flavours.
 
thehaze said:
If you are referring to the recipe from the link you posted, it must be Weyermann CaraMunich III, which is around 60L.

I recently brewed a small 4.5% Hefeweizen using Danstar Munich Classic dry yeast ( said to be Weihenstephaner ) and I was very happy with it. I will brew 3 more wheat with this yeast in the upcoming months. I will use it again in 2 Hefeweizens, which this time I will mash higher and 1 Weizenbock, partially inspired by Vitus ( due to the very light, bright colour, crisp palette and overall, incredibly tasty and really well-done ) with maybe some stone fruit additions and a bit of vanilla. :rock:

But overall, for those of you using dry yeast, Munich Classic is very good, for a dry yeast and even better for a dry Hefe yeast. Fermenting a bit higher will produce stronger esters and flavours.
Click to expand...

Strange. I've seen some shootouts where munich classic was determined to be sub-par, same as "all" dry yeasts for a hefe. But it all depends what your reference is.

If you compare liquid vs dry on a general basis, those strains which should yield strong phenols or esters, I wouldn't even consider using a dry yeast for a hefe. I've tried the MJ M20 which is totally rubbish, but MJ yeasts are also imo very inferior to the Fermentis or lallemand line.
 
The Munich Classic dry yeast does exhibit a classic phenolic and estery profile, which corresponds to a Hefe style. I will say that probably, when compared with liquid counterparts, it's ester/phenolic profile is weaker, in the sense that is not that as " pungent ", but for a dry yeast, and I tried almost all dry hefe/wheat yeast, it really is good.

I fermented at 68F in the first 24 hours, at which point I raised the temperature and allowing it to finish in the next 3 days. It's fruity, slightly clovey with a good amount of overriped banana. I feel that, with the right tweaking ( mash temp., decoction maybe, grain bill ) you can brew delicious wheat beers with this yeast. Again, this is as much as a dry yeast allows it.

Munich wheat is not good, WB-06 is worse and MJs ... I did not like it. I will however use Munich Classic in 3 different beers in the next 2 months and I will surely post some notes in the apropriate threads.

But as of now, this has become my go-to yeast for wheat beer styles. It produces a nice mouthfeel, even when mashed low, it's enough fruity, it's not overly sour, but again, tweaking grain bill and pH will surely accomplish a higher level of sourness, if desired.
 
thehaze said:
The Munich Classic dry yeast does exhibit a classic phenolic and estery profile, which corresponds to a Hefe style. I will say that probably, when compared with liquid counterparts, it's ester/phenolic profile is weaker, in the sense that is not that as " pungent ", but for a dry yeast, and I tried almost all dry hefe/wheat yeast, it really is good.

I fermented at 68F in the first 24 hours, at which point I raised the temperature and allowing it to finish in the next 3 days. It's fruity, slightly clovey with a good amount of overriped banana. I feel that, with the right tweaking ( mash temp., decoction maybe, grain bill ) you can brew delicious wheat beers with this yeast. Again, this is as much as a dry yeast allows it.

Munich wheat is not good, WB-06 is worse and MJs ... I did not like it. I will however use Munich Classic in 3 different beers in the next 2 months and I will surely post some notes in the apropriate threads.

But as of now, this has become my go-to yeast for wheat beer styles. It produces a nice mouthfeel, even when mashed low, it's enough fruity, it's not overly sour, but again, tweaking grain bill and pH will surely accomplish a higher level of sourness, if desired.
Click to expand...

I actually don't find most hefes I've tasted (the big names) to be very tart, or sour.
 
Smellyglove said:
I actually don't find most hefes I've tasted (the big names) to be very tart, or sour.
Click to expand...

I agree. I also do not enjoy too much sourness/tartness in my hefes, so this first try with the yeast was quite enjoyable. I have experienced too much tartness with some examples, and did not care for it.

Cheers!
 
It don't know why people mention WB-06 in a hefeweizen discussion. I see it often when it comes to dry yeast. WB-06 is nothing even remotely close to a hefeweizen yeast, but it does make a quasi-decent dry-yeast wit if fermented warm.
 
I did follow the advice at the BeerAdvocate thread, and got a somewhat improved hef out of it. Here's a link to my post, which includes a photo of my brew next to a Paulaner.

https://www.beeradvocate.com/commun...ier-bavarian-style.561388/page-2#post-6088282

I am still nowhere near as malty or clove-y as the commercial brews, nor as orange in color. Over on that thread the OP said that LODO is critical; I sure hope that isn't true since those are complications I am not yet ready to add. :)

Anyway, the CaraHell did seem to make a nice difference. Next time I would probably add 25-33% more of it even.
 
I'm in the same boat only I'm looking for more banana. My latest hefe turned out much better than my previous efforts but still a bit too sour .

I'm gonna try open fermentation for the first few days next time to allow for more isoamyl acetate production.
 

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